Episode 124: Paul MacCormack and Wyatt Harris

Welcome to the Reel Turf Techs Podcast, Episode 124!

Today, we’re joined by Paul MacCormack, Golf Course Superintendent and General Manager at Fox Meadow Golf Course on Prince Edward Island, Canada. Fox Meadow, a public 18-hole course designed by Rob Heaslip, is where Paul, also known as the Mindful Superintendent, has been blogging for 12 years on TurfNet, promoting mindfulness in golf course maintenance. As a certified mindfulness meditation teacher and international speaker, Paul brings invaluable insights to our discussion.

Returning to the podcast is Wyatt Harris, equipment technician at the Four Seasons Golf and Sport Club in Orlando, Florida. Wyatt, a self-described Florida Man and OCD lawnmower mechanic, first appeared on Episode 23 and in a bonus episode in our Mental Health Series. With his background as the son of a golf course superintendent and a year of daily meditation practice, Wyatt shares how mindfulness meditation has improved his mental health, work efficiency, and family life.

In this episode, Trent, Paul, and Wyatt dive deep into the benefits of mindfulness meditation and debunk myths, including the idea that meditation conflicts with religious practices. They cover essential concepts like self-awareness, interconnectedness, and observing patterns without judgment. The discussion highlights how these practices reduce suffering, enhance leadership, and improve our ability to care for others and ourselves.

Trent shares his own aha moments from ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) meetings, illustrating the power of realizing that our thoughts do not define us. This awareness helps reduce reactivity and gives us the space to respond thoughtfully. They also explore the practical benefits of taking more pauses in a busy day and understanding that our roles in life do not define who we are.

Tune in for an enlightening conversation on mindfulness, leadership, and the transformative power of meditation in both personal and professional life.

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Transcript

Trent Manning: 0:05

welcome to the reel turf techs podcast for the technician that wants to get reel follow along. As we talk to industry professionals and address hot topics that we all face along the way we'll learn tips and tricks. I'm your host, Trent. Manning let's have some Welcome to the real turf text podcast today. We're sitting here with Wyatt Harris and Paul McCormick, and we're going to talk about some mindfulness. Paul, would you like to Give the listeners an idea of where you're at. Prince Edward's somewhere Island.

Paul MacCormack: 0:42

Yeah, thanks so much Trent for having me on and thanks for Wyatt for for setting this up. Yeah As Trent mentioned, my name is Paul McCormick I am the golf course superintendent and general manager at a golf course called Fox Meadow And it's located in the province of Prince Edward Island on the east coast of Canada. Just really handy, Nova Scotia and I've been You Been in the business pushing 25 years, I guess. Yeah, right around that point. And I've also been a blogger on TurfNet for probably about 12 years now, I think, writing a blog called the Mindful Superintendent. And I spent the last number of years kind of traveling around and speaking at GIS and over at Harrogate and all sorts of different places. And a couple of years ago, just, I think it was in the first year of the pandemic, actually, I became a certified mindfulness meditation teacher as well.

Trent Manning: 1:43

Oh, wow. Super

Paul MacCormack: 1:44

I kind of do, it's my little, my little side hustle when I'm not terribly busy doing what I normally do, I guess. So yeah,

Trent Manning: 1:52

Yeah. Very

Paul MacCormack: 1:53

in a nutshell. And I live here with my wife, Jill, and my three grown children, Maria, Lucas, and Claire are 24, 21, and 19.

Trent Manning: 2:03

Okay. Very cool. And what, what's, what's your story? Are you in Florida or somewhere?

Wyatt Harris: 2:09

Yes. Let's see. This is an impressive human, human being that I brought you today,

Trent Manning: 2:13

Yes. Yes, it is.

Wyatt Harris: 2:15

Yes, sir. I'm my name is Wyatt Harris. I'm a mechanic here at the four seasons golf and sport club in Orlando. I'm from Orlando born and raised. I am Florida man. So. You know, in, in the industry, you know, my, my father is a golf course superintendent. So I, I grew up around it, you know, you've heard the story before, but. You know, my first, first job was on a golf course and there was a brief expedition out when I quickly came back in. And so I've been a, I've been a teenager on a crew. I've been a spray tech and years ago Stephen Tucker here who's our director now, but obviously comes from a mechanic background. He gave me the chance to work in a shop and so, loving it. Yeah, that's, that's what I do. OCD lawnmower mechanic. That's my job.

Trent Manning: 2:56

How, how long

Wyatt Harris: 2:57

everybody else.

Trent Manning: 2:58

how long have you been in the shop there? You've been there for a while now.

Wyatt Harris: 3:01

That's probably coming up on four years.

Trent Manning: 3:06

What? Four years? I mean, the last time, so if I remember right, when you were on the podcast before, it was like six, six months.

Wyatt Harris: 3:15

Yeah. Well, someone could probably do the math on that, but you know, I was in there before I was on the pod. Yeah. Incidentally, you didn't call me on the podcast the first day I was in the shop and that would have been a bad idea. And you know, other than that, I've Married. I have a beautiful three and a half year old daughter. And I can kind of segue now, as far as my background with the subject matter at hand here if I look in my waking up app I've been a meditator for a little over a year now, I've been practicing having a daily practice for a little over a year and it's really made a big difference. In my in my mental health, how functional I'm able to be at work. Definitely in my marriage as well. You know, I, I didn't mention this previous times I was on the podcast, but about 6 years ago, I was diagnosed as an adult with autism spectrum disorder. And so at that point sort of, you know, a path began of trying to take some responsibility for my mental health and, as we've, we've talked about before, Trent did various things including therapy and session and meditation has really been, I feel like the, the capstone on the end of it. Not that I'm a, not that I'm a finished product, certainly by far you could, you never could be but it it's, it's, it's really been helpful. And so when I You know, when you have something like that, you want to, you want to share it. And so when I saw Paul sharing what he does you know, I thought this might be a good way to do it and I'm excited to be here and, and share this with anybody whom it may help. I think it could has broad appeal, shall we say?

Trent Manning: 4:42

yeah, no, I'm, I mean, I'm so excited to do this and I do want to thank you, Wyatt, for reaching out and saying, hey, let's do this because it's something, you know, I'm very passionate about too. I don't necessarily. practice meditation. I have tried mindfulness a little bit. And I, I mean, I have tried meditation, so I'm really curious to learn a lot more about this. And like you were leading to, so I've also been going to ACA, so it's Adult Children of Alcoholics, and that has helped me so much doing that. And I mean, I never would have dreamed. But you get in the room with these people and you're like, wow, I think they had it worse than I did. You know, which I mean, isn't necessarily good, but you know, I mean, you feel like you're not alone. Where, you know, most of my life, I felt like I was alone. I was the only one dealing with this. Nobody else deals with this. This is just life. This is what you got to deal with. So, but the point I was going to make is, There's people in this group that has been in the same type of group for 20, 30, 40 years. So like you were saying, I don't think it ever ends. I think we're just constantly growing and changing all those kind of

Wyatt Harris: 6:06

so I kind of wanted to throw an idea out there and then Paul, you can Give me your perspective on it as well. So I, I, Paul, I told you this joke the other day, but I'm a, I do Brazilian jujitsu and I, I used to think that the hardest thing to get your friends to come and try was Brazilian jujitsu. And I've, I've found out that it's actually incorrect. It's actually meditation just sitting quietly and But I thought I would kind of lay out sort of what it is and, and, and the scope as I see it. So the the, the method of practice that I use primarily and kind of landed on at this point is something called the headless way. And it's, it's creator a man named Douglas Harding referred to this sort of thing, contemplative practice meditation as, A science of the first person. And I believe that's what it is. So, you know, if you think about science, as we think of it science of the third person, you know, it's, it's objective measurement it's the means by which, you know, Trent, you and I can take a steel bar and put our micrometer on it. And we can. Each measure it and see what size it is. And then in some sense, there is an object existing in the world that is three inches long, you know, This is the science of the third person but I see meditation and contemplative practice as a methodology by which you can, by paying attention, see what it's actually to be you, right? To just to take time and observe what your mind is like. In any state and how do you, how do you feel about that sort of interpretation? I mean, how does that strike you?

Paul MacCormack: 7:43

I mean, it, it, it kind of checks all the boxes right out of the gate for sure. And it's a, a nice kind of simple entry point into the practice.

Wyatt Harris: 7:55

So I

Paul MacCormack: 7:56

go

Wyatt Harris: 7:57

just to, just to give you a little, a little more there, I think I like thinking of it that way because I think that when you bring up the idea of meditation or tell someone to do it there's a variety of ways in which it can, it can sort of miss and not land. And for one, it can sound like woo woo and. not solid intellectual ground. And on the other hand, it could also offend people's sensibilities. You know, if they're religious or something you know, you could be interpreted as a trying to smuggle the Buddha in or something like that. And so,

Paul MacCormack: 8:31

Yeah, that, that, that is one I come up against a great deal. Actually, I, I teach locally here where I live and I, I consult with a lot of businesses. Okay. and share the practice and kind of share how it can help them in their daily lives. And I think it's interesting because here on Prince Edward Island, we've actually had a Buddhist group land here within the last 10 years from Hong Kong, strangely enough, and purchased a lot of land and, and set up shop actually in one end of the island, which has been fascinating. But as kind of a small community and a small island, you can well imagine we were all European settlers and so a lot of them brought their Christianity with them. So when they look through that Buddhist lens is lens. It is difficult for for people to appreciate it and which is why I tend to teach, even though I was trained through a Buddhist lens. I don't, I, I'm not a practicing Buddhist and, and I tried to convey the practice. in a far more secular way, just because it's, it just removes the whole religiosity thing right out of the gate. And I think that kind of settles everyone a little bit faster. And, and then it's all about for me personally, is finding the entry point for people and meeting them where they are and trying to find, trying to find something relatable. And I think I was telling you why I've been working the last six months with. a company here on PEI, and they're actually electrical linemen. And I mean, you would never think these guys would pick up on this stuff, but it's all about meeting them where they are and treating them like human beings. And that's essentially the, the, that's it in a nutshell, because all of mindfulness, as Wyatt mentioned, it's, it is really a self awareness journey, but through the self awareness journey, You tend to realize what Trent also picked up on by going to your meetings, we are all interconnected at the same time. So, when you start to look inward and you see your patterns and you see how you struggle with things and you see how these patterns create suffering and, and, For you and the people around you, then you become more compassionate and you become more aware of the others around you and you can see it and offer compassion and be more understanding and empathetic. And I really think as a, as a leader and as superintendent general manager, it's been easily one of the most powerful leadership exercises I think I've done is, is really becoming a leader. Like diving into the practice deeper to learn about myself and then carry that to others at the same time.

Trent Manning: 11:34

Now, that makes a lot of sense. And the. Awareness going to my ACA meetings. I get a ton of awareness out of that. Oh, that's why I do this. That's why I'm afraid of being abandoned. You know what I mean? Just all these things that come up that make a lot more sense.

Paul MacCormack: 11:57

And it really just, it really just creates a deeper understanding as a manager or a leader with the people you work with and the people in your family, your extended family, all these little quirks and all these little patterns and all these little things. Like we developed these habits a long time ago in response to something we didn't understand. Right. At the time, because we were young, because we were in a traumatic situation because we didn't really know where we were and we did the best we could with what we had. Right. And then when you do that and never kind of look at it again, it becomes, you just assume that's part of your personality,

Trent Manning: 12:37

Hmm.

Paul MacCormack: 12:37

it's not. It's just a habit, right? It's just a pattern you developed and mindfulness is why I mentioned. It's something that allows you to kind of just look inward and observe these patterns without judgment. It's hard because you're like, initially you're like, how could I be such an idiot? How could I have done this? How could I have caused that suffering? Blah blah blah. But eventually over time, when you practice the non judgment part, when you practice the compassion part, you eventually accept it and you can move with it and move through it and past it and, and learn to forgive yourself. Because we all screw up. Holy

Trent Manning: 13:16

Wow. Yeah, yeah,

Paul MacCormack: 13:17

I mean, we all have patterns. We all have, and even the most seasoned meditators, they still get divorced. They still there's still just people like everyone else. And, and I think that's been one of the most powerful parts for me, I think, in relationship to the turf industry and relationship to what I do day in and day out, because I mean, everybody says you guys are the same. You take care of equipment. No big deal. We cut grass. No big deal. I said, well, no, that's actually not what I do. Most. The cutting grass part is I don't even think about that stuff anymore. After 20 some years, I don't even think about it. But it's the people and it's, and it's tending the people and tending yourself. That's the big job really for me.

Trent Manning: 14:04

Mm hmm. Hmm.

Wyatt Harris: 14:08

thank you for that. I think let's try to get down into the. Nuts and bolts of it here. And I'll just share from from my experience to, to me, the the basic premise from, from my life from where I started is, you know, I was I was quite capable of, of thinking myself into a great deal of misery. Trent, I don't know if I shared you with this before, but you know, when I was particularly when I was a spray tech, that was an illustrative time of a lot of time to sit. And ruminate, you know, the thoughts just come. And if you've got some issues it takes you to a dark place pretty fast. Right. And just, you know, I think many people are maybe alone with their thoughts and not feeling good about that. So, but if I, if I were to describe the sort of geometry here to start with I think that the, the starting point for me, and I would say that for most people who have never used any of these techniques is, is sort of that I'm this person Wyatt, this autobiographical self and thoughts happen to me and I, I cannot help. But it's, it's almost difficult to talk about this now with the new perspective, right? But thoughts happen to me and all these neurotic second order effects then start to occur, right? You think, why am I the kind of person that has these thoughts? Okay, why, you know, why, why, why is this happening? You know, you start to feel bad about who you are as a person because of the things that you think you're, you're, Brain starts ruminating about things that you can't change about the future, about how things should be different than they are. These are the kinds of things that you know, occupied my time. When I, when I look back, I would come home at the end of the day or just all the time. I was so tired. It was, it was metabolically expensive. I'm assuming to, to, to ruminate like that all day. And so the, when I, I think my first Serious interaction with, okay, I'm going to be a meditator now. I think something happened. It may have been my wife and I had a fight or something a year ago. So, or it may have been a therapy session and I said, you know what, I'm just going to, I'm just going to try this. And I, I downloaded an app called waking up and I started sitting and within the first few weeks, as I sat for 10 minutes every day with these guided meditations and listen to a little bit of theory, This distance started to develop between myself and these thoughts, and I, I started to realize that there was an identification that was happening, you know, thoughts would arise and I would fully latch onto them and, you know, ride the train as far as it would go. And so the initial maneuver and Paul, I know you have much to say about this as a straight up Vipassana guy. The initial maneuver is basically just to start seeing that these, these thoughts and. States that arise are not you, right? And If you can sit and focus on an object of meditation, when these things come up, if you look at what happens to these states and thoughts, they sort of disappear, right? They sort of fade away. You know, there's an impermanence to it, right? And just if just that alteration to the mental Geometry of it. You know, I'm, you know, I'm not on this train. I'm here. I'm, I'm self focusing on something and these things are coming, but I can see that they're going if I don't latch on to them. Right. If I simply return and so just sitting with that for a period of time had a great effect characterized, I would say, greatly by reduced reactivity in general. That's a big, big one that that happens. So, Paul, do you want to

Paul MacCormack: 17:56

Yeah.

Wyatt Harris: 17:56

it up there? Fair assessment.

Paul MacCormack: 17:58

Fair assessment and, and very, very, honest and vulnerable at the same time, Wyatt. And thank you for being so articulate about that. Because I think that's probably. One of the single most difficult things for people to appreciate initially is when they sit still, the backup generator kicks in and your mind goes into overdrive and all the thoughts you didn't think for the last few hours, you'll just do them all at once. And it's almost like a waterfall. Like it's just a torrent of thought. And if you don't know any different, like you said, that train analogy is a really good one. Because when you're standing on the platform of a train, you have a choice. You can get on the train and you can follow it where it wants to take you. Because again, another thing that I find in teaching people meditation, when you start talking about distance from thinking, everyone immediately says, well, what's wrong with thinking? It's well, no, there's nothing wrong with thinking at all. It's just the quality of the thought and where you want to go with it. Right. And. If you choose to get on the train and go with the thought pattern, that's great, but you have to know when to get off and you have to know when to disembark and ring the bell and get off the train at the same time. And I think the other thing, other profound thing when teaching people for the first time is simply the concept that your thoughts are real, but they're not true. And that is that is a concept for most people that they, they don't have a touch point for that. I like to use the analogy sometimes of the internet. The internet, like 98. 7 percent of it is garbage. Absolute garbage and very repetitive and just, all it is is there to hook you, right? And take you down rabbit holes. But, if you're willing to do the work, 1. percent of the internet is gold. And there is so much good in it, like what we're doing right now, like being able to listen to podcasts, being able to find the teachers you and I have found why like the internet is wonderful for that stuff, but that's such a small component of it. And our thoughts are very similar. Our thoughts can, when we ruminate and when we, it's just, it's like standing in the waterfall and getting crushed by the torrent of water. Or you can kind of just Get to the side of the river, and you can watch it, right? And, and that's, that's the practice. And, and like you said, Wyatt, the more you practice this, it doesn't mean you stop thinking. And it doesn't mean you don't have bad days. And it doesn't mean you don't lie in bed and your mind goes a thousand miles a minute. It's just you know, that's not you. That's just your mind doing what it does. It secretes thoughts like your mouth secretes saliva. It's just how it works. And when you create that distance from it, then when you're standing in front of a grinding machine and you're pissed off that somebody hit something and broke this reel and you have to stand here and do this and I wish that guy hadn't done that and I wish he's such an idiot and every time I say this he doesn't listen and blah and you can see where you go with that stuff. Or as Wyatt and I talked about last week, you can just accept that the reel's broke and it's time to fix it.

Wyatt Harris: 21:41

already gone.

Paul MacCormack: 21:42

It's already gone. It's already done.

Wyatt Harris: 21:44

gone.

Paul MacCormack: 21:45

And all your job is right now is to fix it and make it work again. And if there's something you need to address after the fact, that's fine. You can do that later. But the, the difference in, like you said, Wyatt, the internal energy and an internal capital you expend by going down those story rabbit holes, that

Wyatt Harris: 22:08

Yeah.

Paul MacCormack: 22:08

adds up over time and it colors your outlook on life. It does. Like it colors. How you see people, it colors, how you see the world. It like is the world a hostile negative place or is it an open, flexible, positive place? That's up to you. And that's all a component of how you choose to think, right? and you also mentioned why the reactivity. And I think that's another place where a lot of people initially have trouble with that. Because, they're not really conscious of the fact that when they get triggered, or when someone says something to piss them off, they have control over what happens. Initially most people are like, well, yeah, well, that's not my fault, he's an idiot, and he did this, and he said that, and I have every right to go off and be reactive. Well, you don't have to. Yeah, you don't have to, right? You can choose. To respond instead of react, and that's the difference, and that's what mindfulness allows. I think all the time.

Wyatt Harris: 23:15

There's a a potential hair to split there, but I would say that but at the same time, I would love to hear what you think about this for me, what I've noticed is that when this. This practice has saved me. It happens by surprise, you know, in a, you're in a stressful situation. Someone's angry with you. Someone's made you upset. You're in a situation where you're going to react poorly. You just miss it, right? It just gives you a little bit of like breathing room and it's this when it's almost it's training, you know, for your mind and it doesn't feel like it when you're doing the practice. It doesn't feel like it's going to pay off this way. At least in my experience, you've been doing it longer. But it makes perfect sense that it would do this. But what happens is this thing is happening. I see how I'm about to react and there's just a little bit of space and you can get off the train. Yeah. And that's the payoff. That's the there's a lot of there's an esoteric side to this that I really enjoy, but in terms of the practical benefit superintendent mechanic listening to this right now. Why should I give this a shot? I would say are you reacting how you would like to react in situations in your life? I certainly was not and I can tell you, and perhaps Paul can confirm here that one of the thing what will happen is you'll get in one of these situations and it'll save you. It'll, it'll, you'll get your space, right? And you can take a more, a more skillful path. That's been and when it happens, you're like, Oh my God, it's working.

Paul MacCormack: 24:46

Yeah, and you're right, Wyatt. It is magical when it happens and, and again, as you mentioned, I've been practicing for a little over a decade now and people often ask me, well, what, what do you notice what's different about you as per before you did it? And. And that's one of the big ones, is those moments when I would have went a completely different way before. I would have went down the rabbit hole. I would have reacted differently. And all of a sudden I find myself choosing kindness instead. Or I find myself taking a breath instead. Or going for a walk instead. Or pausing and doing something completely different. Or even listening to my body or listening to myself. Like I, I just went through surgery just recently just a few weeks ago. And it was the second time I had a hernia surgery, an inguinal hernia surgery. And I had one like 15 years ago. I had never meditated before I had that one. And it was a far different experience. I was far more fearful. I was anxious. I was, I, I kind of forced the issue a lot. And. And I reacted against it, right, in a lot of different ways. And this time, and Wyatt and I talked about this last week. This time I just felt myself when I was in the waiting room beforehand, I was totally calm and I was surprised that I was calm because I was like, okay, well, you're about to have surgery and there's about to be a nurse come in and shave your belly. It's not, this is weird stuff. It's not normal, but I didn't care and it didn't matter. And And I mentioned there was a guy beside me who was having the same surgery, and all there was was a curtain between us, and the doctor was talking to him. And the guy, he sounded like he had it way worse than I did. He sounded like it was going to be a little more complicated and a little more, a little more of a recovery. And, and the doctor was asking this guy do you have people to pick you up at the hospital, do you have somebody to take you home? And this guy kept saying, no, no, no, I don't have anyone. He was just a young guy. Right. And he worked in construction and he was going to have to get he was going to have to take longer time off and he was like, well, how do I make money? And, and so all this stuff. And I just found myself. Just wishing him well, just breathing and wishing this dude well. And I, I didn't think of myself at all. And again, that was one of those moments where. it was just natural for me to do that now. And I, I would have maybe done that before, but it would have taken me a lot longer to get to that, I think. And, and so I, I think you're bang on with this notion of, of just, if, if somebody is listening and they want to be less reactive, if they want to be, I would also say if you ask yourself the question, are you good friends with yourself? It's a pretty simple, but a pretty profound question. That most people, when they stop and think, I don't think they like the answer. It's like when you think about how you talk to yourself internally, and then those ruminating thoughts, why, and those rabbit holes you go down, what's the quality of the conversation inside your mind with yourself, or are you judgmental and harsh and really hard on yourself? Or kind of does it just come and go off like water off a duck's back kind of thing. A lot of people, they, they choose A, unfortunately. And I was one of those guys too, like for a long time. I think a practice like this too, it bears mentioning, as you said, you can go down a lot of different theoretical rabbit holes and it can, especially if you're an analytical mind, there is, you can study for a lifetime and not get a tenth of it, right? But if you're just looking for something. That can just make things a little bit better and you don't have to accept all the theoretical stuff. You don't even have to care about that stuff. If all you're looking for is a little more space in your life. Mindfulness can offer that. And your practice can be something intentional like sitting on a cushion and doing what you do. Or it can be as simple as going for a walk in the woods. That's all it needs to be. Anything that you can find. yourself, anything that you can be present in. So I often tell people, do you play music? Do you love to woodwork? Do you love to do whatever you do, whatever activity you do, if you can be completely present in it and it fills you up and really does it for you. That's a form of meditation too. And, and I encourage people to do more of that stuff. And then eventually if they get used to that idea, I think it's Sometimes they'll try sitting and they'll try actually meditating. And because as you mentioned too wide, it's hard, it's hard work. You can go to a gym all day long. There's nothing like sitting alone with your mind.

Wyatt Harris: 30:15

It's interesting. So, yeah, it, it's not just sitting practice. And I would say that the majority, I, I meditate just for 10 to 15 minutes every day, usually in the morning. That's the extent of my sitting practice. And sometimes I miss it. I think that most of my practice is throughout the day. And I think there's a slight cautionary thing there. I don't know if you've heard things like this, but you know, you hear people describe things as meditation sometimes that are, I would say not. For example, if I bring this up at my gym, people are going to say jujitsu is my meditation because while I'm doing jujitsu, I cannot think about anything else but jujitsu. Maybe I can use some of your wisdom here. I think that. If just distracting yourself with something all consuming maybe isn't giving you the benefit. And I think a little bit of instruction is required to approve, to use daily life as practice, you know?

Paul MacCormack: 31:12

I use that analogy more as an entry point because when you get consumed by Jiu Jitsu or rowing or swimming or whatever you want to do, Or becoming more aware that you're completely present and involved in an activity. That's meditation like that. That's presence. It's a form of presence. It's not formal meditation, but it shows people what it feels like. Because everyone, I think everyone can have times or places in their lives where they lose track of time. Or they, or they find a place where. It's I don't remember what just happened, but I know I was completely in it. Everyone has that experience. I don't care who you are. I don't care what you do for a living. There isn't a human alive who hasn't had at least a brief glimpse into that. And that's the entry point for people. And you can explain that's what presence is. And then you can follow up by saying there is a practice like meditation and mindfulness that is the practice to access more of those moments.

Wyatt Harris: 32:20

yes. Okay. Yeah. well said.

Paul MacCormack: 32:23

So when you practice on a cushion, what you're practicing for is your life. You're not practicing to get really good at sitting on a cushion and being quiet. You're practicing accepting whatever happens and accepting your life and accepting the torrent of thought and emotion and itching and all the rest, right? And then when you bring it into your life, you, what you spoke about earlier, why that natural. Decrease in reactivity just happened. And then when, after people meditate for a little while and they have that walk in the mountains or on the beach, and they have those moments, then like it clicks, right? And then people can, people can really appreciate that a little more because most people, especially in Western society, the only thing they think about when they think about meditation is like ninjas or, you know, Zen priest sitting on top of a mountain with a Bodhi tree beside them. It's not really in our culture, except for prayer. Really, for most people. I mean, that would be the touch point for most people. And, I will often say, that's an entry point as well. It is. It's not formal meditation, but prayer is not much different. You are sitting silently, tuning into yourself, tuning into a higher power of your choosing. And it's the same thing. and and however you choose to access it, that's up to you, right? That's your business.

Wyatt Harris: 33:57

I'll say that what's happened at this point You know, oftentimes I'm doing repetitive tasks. Now I can sort of, step back and, and watch a lot of it happening automatically. And that's a form of that's a form of meditation that I, that I sort of do in my daily life, particularly at work, you know, certain tasks in the shop, you know, you get into a, a flow and You know, because of the practice, I can sit and appreciate, you know, changing out a bunch of grains mowers or grinding or any of the other like regular tasks. And I can just sort of watch myself doing them and I can notice that it's not really me doing it. There's this sort of automaticity that's happening. And that allows her sort of a, a presence, you know,

Paul MacCormack: 34:40

And I think something to be said for, for taking joy in the process of what you guys do, because so much of what equipment techs do is so process and ritual oriented. It is so everything we do in the golf course is repetitive, but it's a different level of repetitive what you guys do a lot of the time. And. It's funny. I was talking with my equipment tech today and telling them when I was going to be talking to you guys tonight. And he's Oh man, what are you going to talk about? And I was like, well,

Wyatt Harris: 35:08

meditation.

Paul MacCormack: 35:09

meditation. And he's actually, ironically, I'll give you some backstory. He's actually my brother in law and and he's taken meditation courses from me and, and doesn't practice, but he, he gets it and he understands it. And, and he's just like you, what he's somebody who started here on the green screw and he just worked his way through everything and he's self taught and he is Meticulous he's he's in my neck of the woods He's the best i've ever come across like in terms of like our shop. You could eat off the floor he is just he's and he is so proactive and so detailerated and so but The one thing we've worked on a lot over the last couple years is his interaction with the group and talking about being more self aware of body language and self aware of how he conveys himself. And even though he doesn't mean to convey himself a certain way, some of the guys get scared when they bring something in that's broken and they don't want to tell him. And, and I'm, and I'm trying to get across to him, like how you respond matters and you don't want them scared to bring. Stuff to you because they'll just hang it on the wall and then it'll still be broken the next time goes. Someone goes to use it. So

Wyatt Harris: 36:26

The choice is theirs,

Paul MacCormack: 36:27

yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wyatt Harris: 36:30

I was just, I was just thinking about this because a couple of days ago, somebody brought a concern to me. A crew guy told me that his his fairway mower seemed a lot slower than the other one. And I was very involved in something. So I sort of brushed him off a little bit, but in the second I did it, I recognized what I was doing. I recognized it was like, That was, I don't even know how to put into words exactly what I did, but it was not kind to him. It was not respectful, you know, and so snap like that. And I know before I wouldn't have even recognized it. And so what did I do? I said, well, okay, time to go pull the fairway. I was out, take him to my little racetrack find which one is too slow. And I did it. And then I found him later and I was like, Hey man you were right. I, and I tried to make him feel good about it,

Paul MacCormack: 37:17

Right.

Wyatt Harris: 37:17

For, for bringing that to me. You know, and just that recognition that, Oh, I just brushed this guy off because I was listening to a podcast and I was setting up a reel and I didn't want to be bothered, you know,

Paul MacCormack: 37:28

that is such a perfect example of mindfulness and action, right? Because so many of us can be when we're caught up and stuff. It's easy to be dismissive and it's not because you want to be mean or it's not because you, you want to be a jerk. It's just because, you know, You're swept up in something else. And, and sometimes people can appreciate that interrupting is not the best idea either, but lots of times also tuning into the fact that especially really good operators, they know their gear, they sit on it all day long. They know when something is not right. So if a guy thinks it's a mile an hour slower than it normally was, he's probably right. And. But maybe they're not. We used to have a Ruffmore here for years and he used to have all these Phantom things that would go wrong with his Ruffmore

Wyatt Harris: 38:21

And for some crew members, some

Paul MacCormack: 38:22

weren't really things at all, but, but Finn really got good at humoring him and he would check them out and would honor it and he'd be on his merry way and that was it. So, yeah.

Wyatt Harris: 38:33

stuff like that requires a fair amount of mindfulness sometimes,

Paul MacCormack: 38:37

Oh, absolutely.

Wyatt Harris: 38:38

and compassion. Because you want. You want people to like, especially like just a crew member, a guy who's working on the crew, the better you can make that guy feel about the work that he's doing. That's how you get brought stuff when it's broken, first of

Paul MacCormack: 38:53

Oh, absolutely.

Wyatt Harris: 38:54

that's how the whole, the whole group of people function as this cohesive Pullman. And my part as an equipment technician is, you know, being respectful and compassionate to people when they bring me bad news. Right. And making people feel good about what they're doing, especially when I do like training and stuff. Right. That's can be my contribution, you know, to to the culture, you know, I'm sure, you know, exactly what I'm talking about.

Paul MacCormack: 39:21

Oh, you're, you're exactly right. And, and I mean, I think I was just thinking when you were referring to that, that can be a tricky story, too, when the person above you doesn't respect you. Because I'm sure there's a lot of equipment techs that find themselves in that position, where the superintendent may not think very highly of what they do. And it's just kind of, oh, just whatever. I'll just top dress whenever I want and I'll just kind of screw things up or I'll, or I won't communicate with you or I won't let you know what's happening. And thankfully, I think superintendents are getting better at that, but I know there's probably still a lot of them that are great at it. And that's one thing that, that I, we pride ourselves in communication a lot because communication is kindness. Like being clear and being like they go hand in hand. They really do. And also conveying why I think sometimes can be really helpful because I think sometimes I've seen the dynamic between an equipment tech and a superintendent can almost be like the dynamic between the turf team and the pro shop and how disconnected that can be sometimes. Right. And, and all that disconnect is, is you're not communicating and you're just not talking and you're not. You don't have a shared understanding of what you're doing, because like you said Wyatt, a turf team has to operate holistically, because no, no job is more or less important than any other job. Some require a little more focus like spraying and grinding reels and stuff like that. But if you have the best greens in the world, but nobody rakes your bunkers, well The bunkers are going to look like hell. And it's one of those scenarios that if, and this is the one lesson I think I've learned as a GM is we're all in the same boat, but the whole entity, the whole golf course is in the same boat. There's really, there's really only one goal. You want people to show up and golf and have fun. That's the goal, right? So when they leave, they'll come back and give you more money. That's, that's why we do what we do. Right. And so often I think there's that. between turf departments and we just want to maintain the golf course. And we, that's our job. And, and it almost sometimes appears to be in conflict with people golfing. And, and anyway, I'm getting off on a bit of a tangent there. Yep.

Trent Manning: 41:56

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Wyatt Harris: 42:31

At this point, I feel like we're touching on something that I, to kind of bring it back. I just want to lay out kind of my, the big, like the biggest payoff from the practice for me. And it, it, it'll tie into what we kind of just talked about. And that's, you know, I talked earlier about the sort of basic, the, the geometry, like the starting point of okay. Okay, great. Now I see that, you know, there's me here. And here's my thoughts out here with all the sensory input as well, you know, and that the benefits of, of sitting and practicing and getting to that understanding. But for, for me personally, I you know, being on the spectrum in particular, but a lot of people, you don't have to be to have this problem. I, for me, identification and fixation on, on concepts and conceptual thinking was a big problem. You know, and, and what really what I'm talking about is, is, is ego you know, you know, growing up, my experience would be, what am I? And the tendency is to identify with something I do, you know what I'm saying? I'm a musician, so that's, so that's me. You actually, who is why? Oh, I'm a musician. And so my value is sort of determined by this this concept of myself as a, a drummer, right? Or, or whatever. Or whatever it was. Even when I was a spray, even like a spray tech. You know, I would take pride in my work but. I was also identifying as, oh, I am spray tech here. Right? That is what I am. If you ask me what I am in this situation, that's what I am. And the issue with all of that is that one, what happens when one of your identities gets taken away? And two, what is, when someone criticizes you, now they're coming for you, you and, what meditation has given me in the end and really the cash value of the thing is, is sort of seeing that if you investigate what your experience is actually I'm sure you can relate to this. It's I'm space, you know, I'm just space for things, you know, like that, that sense of me here that you, you know, feel when you start to meditate. And the thoughts over there, if you look a little closer, you start to see that the feeling of me is just another appearance. You know, oftentimes, and the, the greatest healing value of this practice for me is, is starting to recognize that I'm not, you know, I'm not a mechanic. I'm not a musician. I'm not a jujitsu guy. I'm not even, you know, a husband or a father. These are things that I, that, that appear in my life. And these are things that I'm, you know, greatly involved in as a self, but fundamentally, you know, I'm, I'm space. You know, I'm space for all of these things to arise and, you know, they can't be this, these things can't really be taken from me, you know, and so if I, if I fail as, as a mechanic, you know, if one of my machines goes out and there's a hydraulic leak and I should have caught it, what does that say about me? Well, about my fundamental nature. No, nothing, nothing. It's unstained, you know, because here at center at zero distance, it's just sight, sound, touch, thought, you know, if you sit and look at what the first person experience really is, it's just these things that are coming in and a sense of self arises out of that. And that's how we exist in the world. But to, to put it in an Alan Watts kind of way it meditation, when you get to that, you know, If you use those practices, it helps you just stop taking it so seriously, it's all an appearance, you know, I saw someone on Twitter a while back, some, some guy was like, I could write, I could fill an entire GCM magazine with mechanics arguing about grinding reels. I don't know if you saw someone said that you know, we get so identified. And I bought into it to start. I was like, Oh, I got SIP grinders here. Well, I'm in the cult, you know, let's, let's argue about it. But that's not who I am. You know, none of it's who I am and everything. I think that a lot of the things you just talked about, the communication issues that happen on cruise, you know, first of all, it, it, it starts with people over identifying with this ego that's arising. And when you're over identified with the center of self, You know, you miss that. We're all, we're all so in this together. We're all so in this together. We can't, I love that you said the boat thing. I say that all the time. It reminds me of a conversation I had with Stephen Stephen Tucker a while back of how, you know, it really is every single person on the crew is just as important as, as all the others. Like they all, at some point in their day have the capability to really mess things up. You know, so everybody's got to be on board. I don't know if you can say anything to that but

Paul MacCormack: 47:43

yeah, I circling back to. I mean, I, I know it can sound a little ethereal to people when you start talking about space and no self and, and again, that, that's part of that conceptual stuff that you can really dive into. I think what you said about just being able to look at how you define yourself is important because again, when we talked about identifying with thoughts and the same happens with emotions and quirks and patterns, it becomes part of that identity too. And people. Take it for granted that that's who they are,

Wyatt Harris: 48:23

yeah.

Paul MacCormack: 48:24

not who they are at all. And if you think back over the course of your life and think about all the different people you've been and all the different roles you've assumed, son, daughter, spray tech, superintendent, parent, son of an alcoholic, Trent, like all of these identities were just kind of stops along the way, really. And something you may have thought was the be all and end all when you were 17 is completely inconsequential now because it doesn't matter. In the same way, what you think right now is so important in 20 years time won't really matter that much. Now, there are obviously exceptions to all those rules, but I think what I've seen in my journey as a superintendent, and I've failed spectacularly at it. Is you become consumed with defining yourself only through what you do and only through the quality of what you do. And people often ask again, as I mentioned earlier what, what are, what are some of these patterns or what are some of these things that you realized through meditation about myself? And, and for me personally, one of the biggest realizations was that I'm enough just as I am, because for a long time in my life. I used work as a barometer for how enough I was and how good I was at something. So the harder I worked, the correlation was the better I was when that was a completely upside down way of approaching things, right? But I learned that from my parents and my parents learned it from their parents. And I can see those patterns now and I can see that they landed in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and they worked in a steel mine and they were hard working people. And they did the best they could with what they had, but they had trauma. They had every day of World War II. They had all sorts of stuff they had to deal with. Right. And they carried all that forward. And that informed who my parents were, which in turn informed who I was. Right. But now I can kind of step back and look at it and go, yeah, but that's not who I am. And I can be, I can be all those things. It doesn't mean you have to just dissolve yourself with that stuff. It just gives you more space to do it a little better and with a little more equanimity and a little more just letting go and that stuff and all that. And when, as you said, when you can create internal space for yourself, that's where the money is. Like that's where, that's where the real magic lies, I think, in the practice. And it's, And then when you start to create that space, you realize you don't have to hold on to that stuff. I can't tell you how many superintendents I've talked to over the years after writing something or after speaking somewhere and people coming up afterwards and just they just let it go all in front of me and tell me the story. And, and they're like, my God, when you were talking about totally. Burning yourself out. You were telling my story and I was like, I'm telling everyone's story, and we're all like that. It's just how it is. Unfortunately, it's kind of how we're all wired as superintendents. I think sometimes it's, and it's, it's really easy, I think, because our industry is so expectation laden. So when you internalize that expectation of how the golf course needs to be presented as part of who you are, that's a really dangerous place to inhabit. It really is because. It's got nothing to do with you, who you are as a person and who I am. Like, do you think my kids care when I go home, how fast the greens were today?

Wyatt Harris: 52:39

Yeah. And what does that tell you?

Paul MacCormack: 52:40

don't at all. And, and do you think my wife cares what what cut we used on the fairways that day? No, she doesn't care at all. Like really it is what it is. And the thing was for the first, like half to A little more than half of my career, that's what I was totally consumed by it. I really was, and it took everything falling apart and basically getting fired and burning out completely and, and just having to kind of step away from it all. It took that for me to kind of wake up and realize that I was going about it all wrong. Even though for all I was appearances, I appeared successful too. Right. And so, yeah, it was, it was the wake up call really for me.

Wyatt Harris: 53:28

Well, thank you Paul for reeling that back in after I tried to go full no self there but it really has been a you know, important for me, and I think that what you, what you said about you know, just defining yourself by the quality of the work That's that's a trap, you know, it's okay a little bit, but and that that goes down to me as a mechanic to I mean, it's, you know, for all of us, you know, I can, you know, if my cuts if my cuts off, I can take that real personally, you know, and there's

Paul MacCormack: 53:59

I mean, all that, that, that's, it's a paradox because

Wyatt Harris: 54:03

Yes. Yes. You can't be apathetic.

Paul MacCormack: 54:05

you want a quality of cut. You like, I want to do my job well, but I found over the years, the more I practice mindfulness, the more I do my job well, but the less effort it takes. And the more I can let go of. I don't add the extra 60 percent on that I used to, right? I often tell people I get twice as much done in half the amount of time now. Because it just, I don't waste time on things that don't matter anymore. And part of that is age and learning the hard way, but I don't want people to, to listen to this and think that Adopting a mentality or a mindset like this means you don't care about the quality of your work. It just gives you more space to devote to it. And then when it's done, it's done. That, that's the other thing. Like at the end of the day, you touch the stone and it's done. And then you go home and you turn it off and then you come in the next day and start again. That's the best way of thinking about it.

Wyatt Harris: 55:07

the contrary. I think it's almost, it's almost magical how you can still be good at your job and you can still, still take pride in your work and you can do really good work and all the rumination and extra stress that comes from over identifying was just a complete waste of brain cycles. You know, it's so like for me, if I get a call about something, it's a, Oh, okay, I'm going to go figure this out. You know? It's, there's no longer that stress of Oh, I'm going to be in trouble and people are going to think less of me because I sent out mowers that didn't do a good job or this piece, you know, it's just like a, okay, I'm going to go figure out what's happening and, and solve it. And, and, it's going to feel good in the end. Everyone's going to feel good in the end cause we're going to solve it, you know, and that's all that has to, that's all that has to appear. So anyway, I'll share how I, Got into it sort of again, and then all I'd love to hear your suggestion also for people Because I think that when you, you bring this up, it's kind of goes back to what I said earlier, you know, you try to get someone to go to jujitsu, that's kind of understanding, you know, that's going to take a few hours of their day, you know, meditation can only take, it could be 5 or 10 minutes and people still don't want to do it. But I can tell you that I get up every, every morning I get up, I get a little bit of coffee in me. Alright, I take my espresso so that my powers of concentration are just a little bit on, and I sit and I either use a guided meditation or not, and it's ten minutes. It's a commitment of ten minutes every morning to just, look and see what my mind is like. There's a lot of good apps out there. I like waking up. That'll give you some guidance at the start. But I think that it really is pretty basic. Once you've got a little bit of instruction, if all you do is Every morning or at some point in your day, you sit and you maybe close your eyes and you feel what it's like to breathe for a while. That's, that's kind of the start of the practice. Would you agree with that?

Paul MacCormack: 57:06

Absolutely. I like,

Wyatt Harris: 57:07

daily practice look like? Sure

Paul MacCormack: 57:09

It ebbs and flows, but for the most part, my day is kind of interfused with a lot of small pauses. But I do meditate each morning before I head to work for usually about 15 minutes I will sit intentionally, usually in silence at the start of the day. And then as I mentioned, I'll intersperse very brief moments during the day. Like just close the door in the office and close my eyes and take a few breaths and sit for five minutes and, and really it's just, it's, it's almost just like a resetting, it's like zeroing things out. It's just getting back to that baseline. And I'll use that a little more if the day is a little heavier. If, if the day, if there's a lot going on and I need to kind of refocus myself, I'll do that more during days like that, but then there's days where not so much. And, and then generally, generally my evening flows that way too. Like I'll usually get home late in the afternoon and go for a walk or like physically do some stretching or do some exercise, which again is part of being mindful as well, like moving your body. I think that's important. Especially because we talked a lot about energy a few times, and I think, I think being mindful of the energy you hold in your body in the run of a day, depending on what you're doing, if you're hunched over a grinder, or if you're kind of underneath something, or like you guys can torture yourselves in all sorts of different ways, and I think really thinking about how you move your body after you finish today's work can be really helpful too because you just don't know You don't know where you hold tension until it's too late a lot of the time and then you develop back aches and knee aches and shoulder pain and all that jazz and headaches and stuff. So, and then generally what I'll do is kind of like hang out with whoever or do whatever in the evening, go on a podcast Have fun talking about mindfulness. So, and then I'll meditate again and kind of wind the day down that way with another 15, 20 minutes. And sometimes it's guided and, or sometimes it's like a body scan meditation just to kind of decompress everything and

Wyatt Harris: 59:29

Let me ask you this, if you don't mind, just for anyone listening. That, that start of the day let's say it's 10 minutes. Someone's going to give this a shot. What are you doing?

Paul MacCormack: 59:38

Well, I mean,

Wyatt Harris: 59:39

What are you paying attention to? What are

Paul MacCormack: 59:41

that's, yeah, that's up to you I mean, really, especially early in the day for me, I've used that time of day, kind of twofold it's, it's a, to focus myself and a, to set an intention for the day and sometimes that can be as basic as I want to be kind to everyone today, or I want to be. Good to myself today, or I want to take care of my body, any, anything like that. But then sometimes what I'll do, because inevitably thoughts will creep in and, and, and you'll go down little rabbit holes. And, and sometimes that's okay. Sometimes I've learned to go, okay, well, no, I'm going to go there a little bit and I'm going to, because sometimes when we sit a lot of times, another magical thing that happens is when we're busy, busy, busy during the day. It's hard to really deep think and it's hard to find the really like that gold I referred to earlier talking about the internet It's really hard to access that stuff because we're always like right up at the surface. We're not down like 10 feet and sometimes when you sit something like a solution to a problem or a solution to organizing the day or Something that you remembered was gonna happen those things will just kind of pop up And I find it helpful to, Oh yeah, okay. I got to think about that today, or I got to go there today. And I got to really kind of be mindful of that as the day progresses. And, and that's, that's why it's kind of brief for me in the morning. Cause I, that's just kind of how I do it. And, and then if I get the chance, like over the weekend, or, I mean, I've done, I did it a lot over the last number of weeks, cause I was home recovering from the surgery. I meditated a lot. Like I just, I had the time. So I would sit for half hour. 45 minutes, an hour at a time. And, and I really took advantage of the break, which was nice. But getting back to an entry point and accessibility for people. There's a few, there's a few different directions you can go. I mean, a lot of people find it initially easier to try it on their own. And that means using an app and apps are great because. They do have guided meditations on them. They have timers on them. They have bells they have Like behavior tracking that can reinforce what you're doing and all that stuff's really good. Guided meditations are really helpful initially because it is completely overwhelming to just sit there and shut your eyes and, and go, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. This is not working. This is not happening. But when someone is kind of supporting you. And guiding you and saying, just so you know, all the thoughts and all the things that are happening. It's completely normal. Every human being goes through the same thing. It's all just how it is. And that kind of, that kind of reassures you a bit, I think. The other thing I think I'd say for people is start really, really small. Start like with a minute. Start with three breaths multiple times a day. Just start there. That's all you got to do. And just see how it feels. Just instead of going, like you said, instead of going down the rabbit hole, or going flying off the handle at somebody, can you step back and breathe, and go for a walk, or come back and just sit? Can you just practice very very small bite size? Chunks of, of presence. And, and really that is where I would encourage most people to start. And inevitably, if you can sit for a minute, you'll sit for two minutes. And if you'll sit for two minutes, you'll sit for five minutes. It's just how we are. We, we will push ourselves because naturally we're all competitive people. We wouldn't do this gig. I don't think if we weren't somewhat competitive. So I find most people will naturally just gravitate to doing more. on their own, if they want to do it. And, and the thing is, it's not for everyone. I get it. It's okay. It, you don't have to do it. It's, it's just a suggestion, right? It's like choosing an exercise that works for you to keep your body fit. It's up to you what you do. I don't care. I mean, you can play golf, you can lift weights, you can do whatever you want to do, as long as you're doing something. That's the important part. And, and inevitably, if you go down this path. You'll fail, you'll stop, you'll drop it. Just start again. That's the trick. You just start where you are and you start over and you come back and start over. And then really that is kind of the, the bottom line message of meditation is you just start where you are and, and when your thoughts go or you get swept away, you just come back and breathe and you just pause and start again. the more you do that, it's like doing a bicep curl. The more you do it, you strengthen the muscle. And, and like we mentioned earlier, I think when people can learn to strengthen this muscle a little bit at a time, it's not so overwhelming, and eventually it's far more sustainable to develop something moving forward.

Trent Manning: 1:04:52

Y'all do any kind of breath work while you're meditating? Oh

Paul MacCormack: 1:05:02

breathing a lot of times. And breath work is exceptionally helpful, especially for anxiety and especially like when you're feeling really stressed out because oftentimes what happens in those situations is we stop breathing. Or we breathe like the absolute minimum amount, like you're very, very shallow and our brains aren't getting enough oxygen. Our bodies are not oxygenated. It's just not how we're meant to be. Right. So. So I think lots of times, even that's why I mentioned just stopping and taping, taking three deep intentional breaths and inhaling relatively like to the count of five or so, and then exhaling to the count of seven or eight and like really getting all here out and just doing that a few times, it just interrupts everything and that's the trick, right? When you can interrupt the rabbit hole or the ruminating or anything like that. And that's why the breath is such a helpful tool, because unless you're in dire straits, breath's always with you. If it isn't with you, there's something wrong. And meditation isn't the biggest thing you need to worry about, I guess, so.

Wyatt Harris: 1:06:13

well, I something I noticed a long time ago as a musician, someone pointed this out to me is, you know, if I was playing a hard passage on my instrument, I would stop breathing.

Paul MacCormack: 1:06:21

Right.

Wyatt Harris: 1:06:22

And so practicing, like I have to think about, okay, continuing the breath during the 16th note passage or something. And I've noticed that there's been times as a mechanic, if I'm in an awkward position, if I'm underneath the machine, if I'm doing one of those, you know, reaching deep into a.

Paul MacCormack: 1:06:38

Mm hmm.

Wyatt Harris: 1:06:39

You know, I'll find that I stopped breathing in those times and those are the times when we, when we get when we get pissed off sometimes, I

Paul MacCormack: 1:06:46

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And another thing I mean, you stop breathing. And the other thing is, you mentioned earlier, it's, it's where are you storing all that tension? Mm Like when you're underneath something and you're twisted like a pretzel and trying to get a wrench on a bolt that has no business turning, like, how does that affect your body afterwards? Right? And are you stretching afterwards? Are you kind of taking a minute to kind of recalibrate after doing stuff like that? I mean, that's why I can never be a mechanic because I have no, I'm an incredibly patient person, but I have no patience for nuts and bolts. Like when I, when that stuff doesn't work, I'm just immediately gone. I, can't do it.

Wyatt Harris: 1:07:27

breath work at all going into this, but I, I just keep thinking that I've thought before being a mechanic is it's, it's problem solving and stress positions. You know, so we're like thinking about technical problems while we're in like uncomfortable positions sometimes and that's when wrenches get thrown. I'm not, I mean, I'm not,

Paul MacCormack: 1:07:47

It's such a metaphor for life though, right? I mean, what is life, but problem solving in difficult situations. And superintendents are no different. And, and I think I think when you get stuck, like I mentioned earlier, you get stuck at that level of surface thought all the time, and you're just always trying to solve like rapid fire things. It's really hard to problem solve at a deep level. And you can't, I don't, I would make the argument you cannot problem solve at a deep level unless you're still, and unless you've dropped down a few layers. And you're actually, Approaching it with some measure of mindfulness or methodically or, or with your breath in tune with your body. And, and I have solved almost every problem worth solving on the golf course by just sitting down and shutting up and not trying to fix it. And the problem and the solution just finds me, right?

Wyatt Harris: 1:08:47

I saw your post about that the other day and I was reminded of something Alan Watts said where, you know, if you've got a kid in grade school and you're trying to teach him math, This honestly, this kind of happened to me but he's the kid's I'm not getting it. And so the teacher says, try harder. And what does he do? He does the same thing he was doing, but now he's scrunching his faith, you know, and there's this tension holding and efforting and this thing. Okay, I've got this problem and I need to focus on it and I'm going to solve it and I'm going to solve it. But all the while, if you meditate, you see that thoughts just come out of nowhere. And if, if you can sit and be still you know, when if the solution presents itself to you, that's not surprising. The other thing I would add here in response to Utrend is that obviously there's a lot of emphasis on, on the breath. But the breath is just one object of meditation. And it really can be a lot of different things. When I sit and do Like a basic sitting meditation with eyes closed. What I tend to do is I tend to focus on the sensation of sitting and then secondarily the breath. Sometimes the breath is uncomfortable for me. I've got pretty bad allergies. Thanks mom. And so breathing can be distracting. And you know,

Paul MacCormack: 1:10:08

and that's a really good point. It's, and I made light of it, but. Sometimes for, for certain people, breathing is hard, especially if there's trauma involved in your life like it can be heavy and it can be difficult to sit and just breathe. And so that's why, as Trent mentioned, you can use sensations in your body. The sensation of sitting, sometimes you can focus on your hands. Or your, the bottom of your feet they're two very energy active places in your body. The other one you can use sometimes it's just the sounds in the room, just the sound of a clock or the sound of a fan or something. And each time you get distracted, you just come back. And, and in, in the training I received though, those are just, they're called anchors. It's just where you anchor yourself, where you come back to.

Wyatt Harris: 1:10:56

I would say another, another sort of complication sometimes is that the breath is automatic but also voluntary. Very. And there can be this neuroticism that happens where I've experienced this where I'm, you know, I'm focusing on my breath, but the problem is I feel like I'm controlling my breath and I don't want to be doing that. And so my original workaround was just like, well, this is just another okay, this is breathing while it feels like I'm controlling it. And I was, it would just be mindful of that. But as I shifted to focusing on body sensation for a basic sitting meditation, so I'm sitting in my chair and I'm feeling what it feels like the gravity pulling into my chair. And secondarily, the breath is happening. This thing can happen where Okay, now I feel what it's like for the breath to just happen. And that's really, that's very interesting. And Paul mentioned sound. Sound is great. What the great thing about sound is, it really kind of, you really can't control it. Especially if you're sitting outside. I think this is why nature is great. That bird's tweeting and it, you don't have a damn thing to do with it. And for me, it's, it's illustrative of I mean, it's the same thing as thoughts. Okay. The thoughts are coming out of a black box. Okay. The point isn't think less or change your thoughts. If you've got, you know, thoughts that are toxic, that's what therapy is for. In my opinion, it's trying to edit what's coming out of the black box. If there's ugly things coming out of it, but for meditation, all we're doing is sitting and focusing on some arbitrary object. Right. And seeing thoughts come out and recognizing that we're not them. And so that can be focusing on the breath, sitting sound. I've never tried smell. I'm sure you could do it.

Paul MacCormack: 1:12:34

I've never tried it myself. Yeah.

Wyatt Harris: 1:12:37

Yeah, it's, it's funny. You know, I'm practicing headless way. It's a highly visual. But there is, there does seem to be a hierarchy of, of senses. Obviously humans are primarily visual. And so I would say that the easiest anchors for me have been sight, sound, and then, and then body sensations. And I think that you can, as a beginner, if you're going to go tomorrow morning, before you go into the shop, if you're going to try this for 10 minutes, you know, maybe sit for that five minutes and just feel what it feels like to sit in your chair, you know,

Paul MacCormack: 1:13:07

Or just sit and listen. Yeah.

Wyatt Harris: 1:13:08

yeah.

Paul MacCormack: 1:13:09

I think the second point I'd add, and we, we mentioned that for a lot of people, the entry point into a practice like this can be easier to do on your own because we feel self conscious and nobody likes to sit closing their eyes. And it feels very vulnerable for a lot of people, especially men, men are really super vulnerable and super kind of. There's a lot of barriers and that stuff, I think by times, I would also circle all the way back to how you started this conversation trend in, in talking about the power of sitting with a group of people and the power of of just sitting and being in a room with people who are experiencing the same thing. And, and it's, there is something very ancient and very communal and powerful in that too. And it's, it's an essential part of Buddhist practice. And, and when people sit together in stillness, it's incredible. I've, I've only done it a few times in my life. I attended a seven day silent retreat with a hundred people and we sat for six hours a day. And it was crazy. I never thought I could do something like that, but it was profound, the effect it had on me as a person and my nervous system and everything. It was really, really something. So if you're up to it, you can probably Google it and find somewhere in your community, someone who's teaching. and and you might find a group that probably would welcome you with open arms and would love to have you come and sit and learn and be part of what's happening. So, so I would encourage people if they feel up to it and feel, feel like that's, that's something they may like to try or may like to try eventually. Finding a group of people can, can be very, very helpful as well. Cause sometimes it's hard to sustain it on your own. Like I think why you mentioned that when we were talking last week, like you can, it can feel very individual and very isolating sometimes I think if you're trying to do it on your own and especially like in an industry like ours to find someone else to talk to about it can be hard, but it can be very empowering when you do and very. It really does support the practice when you have other people to chat with and other people to, because again, it comes back to what we said earlier, Trent, you realize you're all just in the same boat and we're all just doing the same thing. And we're all just neurotic fools sitting there trying to watch the waterfall of all this crap that's happening in our head. And, and we're all just doing it together and it can be really,

Wyatt Harris: 1:15:57

Now that we're an hour and 20 minutes into this video file, I'm finally able to contribute, I feel like but I would say that a big thing that Paul and I talked about something I've thought about, I think, for a long time, but is that One of the great things about the job we do Is that first of all, we're outside a lot, you know, and if I, you know, I've, I've known some mechanics that never leave the shop and never meant I going out driving the course, especially my course, there's no houses, not that there's a problem with houses, but there's, it's a lot of natural beauty and, but the other, the other thing is that our, our, I mean, the whole, the whole point here, the cash value of it is, you know, Recognizing that, that thoughts are impermanent, you know, they come and they pass away and they're not you and our job is an exercise in impermanence, you know, you think about, you know, I've been a 17 year old kid pushing the bunkers up and then coming in the next day and it ran and pushing them back up and in a way that's the nature of our job. Like you just abstracted up to the top. I mean, the, it's a living organism. It changes every day. I had the experience a couple of weeks back as we were really coming into the hot weather. You know, one week my greens mowers were not scalping anything and the next week nothing changed. They were just growing way more and the thatch got to a point where they're, they're just not, they just can't do it anymore. We got to raise height. We got a verticut. That's it. Okay. It's summer. So I felt, you know, I felt cool and identified all winter with You know, cutting really low and having these fast screens and then suddenly, okay, that's gone. And that's, that's everything. It's this living thing. And, and when you go, if you go out and take a drive, you see the impermanence everywhere, everywhere you look, it's things constantly changing and never stopping. Right? Even if it's, on your way back to the shop after you fix something, if you stop and you hear. You hear a bird or you hear a stream or something and you hear that the sound is, is, is amorphous and constantly changing and you're not controlling it and you just, you know, you see that that's, that's the nature of, that's what it's like to be you also. You

Paul MacCormack: 1:18:16

And I, I think as an industry, the more we can appreciate the fact that We have influence over things, but we can't really control much of it at all. we expend a great deal of time and energy trying to control things we have zero control over. Like I often get a kick out of it when people talk about on the superintendent side and the agronomic side of things about talking about microbes and talking about how we're going to dump a whole bunch of microbes in the ground. And I'm like, do you really think we can do that? Do you really think we have that much power that if there's million of a certain kind of microbe underneath your foot. You think spraying something is going to change that? I don't really think it does. Now that's just my opinion, but, but I think we can get really carried away with that idea. And it's funny because I think it's only gotten worse. As the technology gets better and as like from an equipment side of things, from a like input side of things, like chemicals and fertilizers and this, that, and the other thing, like what we're able to do now, I've made the argument, we're almost too good at it. Like we really are too good. And I was watching the memorial over the weekend and I'm looking at the grass and I'm like, Holy. There's nothing wrong, nothing, there was nothing out of place and it's just, when you look at Augustine, you look at all these players, but then you, like I always

Wyatt Harris: 1:19:38

that moment though. Right

Paul MacCormack: 1:19:39

well it was, right, and, and then, I mean, the yeah, back to the at that moment part, as soon as those tournaments are over, they usually rip the snot and renovate them and turn them upside down and do it all over again, but, but yeah, I, I wonder about that sometimes, and I think, I think there's a part of the game that we lose, Like when we, when we're attempting to control too much and we're, when we step outside of that notion that it's always constantly changing and it's never the same and all we can do is respond to what happens and all we can do is just, we can make a plan, but end of the day, how often does that ever work out? Sometimes. And you mentioned Heideck, like your mowers being banged on. Why? Like superintendents are the same. Like I could count on one finger probably. a moment over a season where I could sit in my favorite place and look out and go, you know what? Everything is exactly how I want it to be. And then poof, it's

Wyatt Harris: 1:20:38

it's gone.

Paul MacCormack: 1:20:39

Yeah, it's gone. And I, I used to try to hang on and chase that, but now I just kind of go, that was fun. All right, let's go. We'll keep going

Wyatt Harris: 1:20:48

that when I when I first started dealing with the cutting units and especially as it started kind of becoming my responsibility, like I, that's what I'm in control of. I if, if it seemed like it if, if it was no longer working, if the cut was no longer good, I would go crazy, you know, trying to think, what did I mess up, you know? And it's taken some time and that's probably my, my growth psychologically. And my, my job has been recognizing that while the grass is changing underneath it, you know, and so I, I track things. I measure a lot of things. I try to make every mower exactly the same. And then the grass shifts underneath it. And at that point

Paul MacCormack: 1:21:31

phone call from a chiropractor on the way out and knocks it out of work. It's just

Wyatt Harris: 1:21:34

there's, well, there's that too, but you know, okay, now the greens are, okay, they're thatchy now it's time to tear them up. And now, and now it's okay, how can I contribute to this? How can I have a good attitude about supporting, you know, these, these cultural practices that, you know, are, you know, theoretically going to destroy my equipment. But

Paul MacCormack: 1:21:56

But again, you use, you use the magic word, my equipment, it's not your equipment, it's not, my, it's not my golf course either. Like I hear people, they use that term a lot. Well, in my course, we don't do this. I don't own a golf course. I

Wyatt Harris: 1:22:09

but they're, they're

Paul MacCormack: 1:22:10

and I tend to, I'm a steward while I'm here, but I don't own it. It's not mine. And I don't, I don't, I used to invest myself in it a lot, but I don't anymore. It's, it's just how it is, right?

Wyatt Harris: 1:22:23

Well, that's that. That's that paradox you mentioned, right? Because I can, I said, Oh, my equipment, but I recognize that you know,

Paul MacCormack: 1:22:31

you're responsible for.

Wyatt Harris: 1:22:32

Well, sure. And I can, I can do, I can do everything right. And everything is still going to change underneath it. You know,

Paul MacCormack: 1:22:40

Exactly.

Wyatt Harris: 1:22:41

right in quotes,

Paul MacCormack: 1:22:42

so, I don't know, Trent, is there anything that you want to, any other places you want to go before we kind of start winding this down, or?

Wyatt Harris: 1:22:50

do you think, do you think we gave you a good starting point for you or for someone listening? You know?

Trent Manning: 1:22:54

I think it's getting there.

Wyatt Harris: 1:22:56

Yeah.

Trent Manning: 1:22:57

yeah. Is there a step between today and starting your first session? I mean, yeah. How do you get there? Do you just, you just wake up and do it one day?

Wyatt Harris: 1:23:08

Can I, can I, can I, let me try

Trent Manning: 1:23:10

Yeah, or do you start with, you know, do you recommend starting with an app to kind of get your feet wet and then moving on to other stuff?

Wyatt Harris: 1:23:20

I don't know. I think Paul kind of gave both answers earlier a little bit. No, there's no there's no intermediate step between you sitting down tomorrow. All you need is your phone. Let's make a 10 minute timer, a five minute timer, just so you're not sitting there thinking how long has it been, you know, and you sit and all you, all you have to do is sit there and choose something to pay attention to. And when you get distracted, go back to the thing you were paying attention to and just see what happens. It's so simple. It's, it's the cheapest hobby you'll ever find with that said I

Paul MacCormack: 1:23:55

Probably the most expensive one, because you can travel all over the world seeking people to teach you how to do it if you want, but,

Wyatt Harris: 1:24:01

yeah. So you don't have to fly to Tibet for sure.

Paul MacCormack: 1:24:04

no.

Wyatt Harris: 1:24:05

And, but I did start with an app and I found it greatly beneficial. It gave me a lot of context and, and, and some guidance towards, you know, so

Paul MacCormack: 1:24:14

I would highly recommend the app as well. I use one called Insight Timer. I've used it for almost a decade

Wyatt Harris: 1:24:19

Goldstein on that app?

Paul MacCormack: 1:24:22

No, he's on the sand or he's on the Dan Harris one. I think the

Wyatt Harris: 1:24:26

No. Oh yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I, I use,

Paul MacCormack: 1:24:31

If you go on the app store, you can probably find at least a dozen. And the trick

Wyatt Harris: 1:24:37

recommend it.

Paul MacCormack: 1:24:38

I, think I would. I would try to try a few different ones, because Wyatt just mentioned Joseph Goldstein, he's a, he's a teacher, right? And all these apps have different teachers associated with them. And finding a teacher you connect with is a lot like finding a therapist. The first few you try may not fit, and you may not connect with these people. And they're all saying the same thing, just slightly different. But you gotta find somebody who you can hear, and you can listen to. And you can dial into and, and sometimes you're just not ready for a certain person. So, so yeah, I would, I would encourage people. Yeah. Just start, start there. It's probably, probably the easiest way.

Trent Manning: 1:25:22

can I tell a quick story?

Paul MacCormack: 1:25:24

Sure.

Trent Manning: 1:25:24

So I'm in a search, this is, you know, two years ago, whatever, in search for a therapist. And. So I meet with this lady virtually and I don't, she's probably 30 maybe. So, you know, 15 years younger than me, I think, you know, she'd been doing it two or three years. And so she's going over like my basic information and she said, this must be a misprint. It says on here that you have a podcast and what I don't, I don't think this relationship is going to work out too well. So, right. And I mean, you know, I get it. I'm not your typical podcast host, but everybody's got a podcast now, so you can do it, but yeah, I mean, back to the medication thing I personally used insight timer to really enjoyed that. And then why, when you were talking, it was making me think about getting out on the course there. I was in a pretty bad place for. I mean, I would say a month and for that month I was doing some meditation. I was doing anything I could to, you know, to try to dig out of this hole. And, you know, I don't know why I kind of fell out of meditation, but Paul, when you were talking, it made me think of the same reason I fall out of exercising, you know, you just, you don't go, Yeah, you don't go tomorrow. You don't go the next day. And the next thing you know, it's been a month and you hadn't done it. but would y'all.

Paul MacCormack: 1:27:06

is the same. You just start over.

Trent Manning: 1:27:08

Right.

Paul MacCormack: 1:27:08

you can do.

Wyatt Harris: 1:27:09

Yeah, all you can do is begin again. Trent, I would if I may just, I would highly recommend an app called Waking Up.

Trent Manning: 1:27:16

Okay.

Wyatt Harris: 1:27:16

and also, secondarily, Paul mentioned 10 percent Happier. That's a great app I've tried as well. And Joseph Goldstein is a really good straight to pasta teacher. But I would recommend waking up does, does inside timer have a lot of guided meditations on it? I haven't used it. Okay. All right. That's it's just one of those apps. Okay. Sounds like that's three options.

Trent Manning: 1:27:35

Yeah. Is there any in particular one that you would choose as far as. A type of meditation. You know, I know, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of different ones that i've seen on inside timer And the way I kind of chose what I wanted to hear is kind of how I felt that day when i'm scrolling through the app like learning You know, and I don't remember if I think it was why it was For paul, sorry, we've talked so much. It's hard for me to keep up. But somebody was talking about, you know, knowing yourself And that's one thing, but loving yourself and, you know, until two years ago, I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't even know that was possible that you could love yourself.

Paul MacCormack: 1:28:23

Most people don't.

Trent Manning: 1:28:25

obviously that's why I've never really loved anybody until two years ago. So, I mean, this, you know, this whole journey of growth, it's, it's life changing.

Paul MacCormack: 1:28:35

Absolutely. Yeah, no, I, I, you're bang on Trent in saying especially initially, just do what feels comfortable. Just make it easy. It doesn't have to be hard at all. And if you make it easy and repeatable, you're more active with it. and, and you, it will evolve and change and, and you may feel like doing something really simple today and a month from now, maybe you want to listen to a different teacher who's talking about something a little more. ethereal and deeper and that's the beauty of it. I mean, and the other option too, there's lots of books. I mean, there's, there's just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books that you can read on it. If, if that, and again, that comes back to the self awareness piece of knowing how do you learn best? Do you learn by listening? Do you learn by watching someone visually? Do you learn by reading? Do you learn by, and, and eventually I think you just kind of. mash it all together and find what works for you.

Trent Manning: 1:29:39

Mm hmm.

Wyatt Harris: 1:29:43

up app is that the introductory course takes you through a lot of different variations of meditation. So early on, it might be a straight up sort of Vipassana style, sit, return to the breath, focus on an object of meditation. But then you might be introduced to something like Metta, loving kindness meditation. You kind of mentioned that, but that's, I think that's a great I think that's a great practice of, you know, sitting and feeling you know, compassion and love for, for others and for yourself. I think that's a great, that's a great practice. And the other thing I'll say is that my experience of shopping teachers is that there's, I'll, I'll use different, I'll listen to different teachers for different purposes. There's some that are very active. There's a teacher Locke Kelly that I'll listen to sometimes. Great. But it's, it's pretty technical. Like I think of it as sort of, it's sort of like mental yoga. He's sort of instructing me to get into these different states and perspectives and I don't do that at, at 4 30 in the morning, you know, it's not what's called for and I don't have the concentration for it now, but I think that's probably one of the advantages of an app is that you can kind of shop and get some, get your, get, get your feet underneath you.

Paul MacCormack: 1:30:57

For sure.

Trent Manning: 1:30:58

When I don't remember who it was, but I was listening to someone that meditates a lot and he said he struggled when he first got into it with because he didn't think he was doing it right. You know, and he was doing it over and over and over again. He's you know, this is wrong. I'm messing up. And then he says he finally finds out there's not really any right or wrong way.

Paul MacCormack: 1:31:24

There isn't. It's, it's simply the intention to do it. And, and that's the most important part. It's, it's just like you mentioned Trent, like loving yourself enough to offer yourself the gift to just to sit. And, and that's really having that intention and, and showing up and starting over when you fail and just keep that's the most important thing. Because the goal, again, is not to become an Olympic level meditator. It's not what it's about. It's about living a better life. It's that simple. And being kinder to yourself and the people around you. If you want to boil it down to that, and who doesn't want to live a life like that? And, and The more you do it, the less you'll suffer. And everybody wants less suffering in their lives too. So, I mean, it's when, when you kind of distill it down to those simple, like phrases, it's, it doesn't have to be any more deceptive or technical or anything. It just can be what you want it to be. And as long as you can show up and do it over and over, that's where the magic happens. It's just loving yourself enough to take the time for yourself

Trent Manning: 1:32:34

And it is kind of cumulative.

Paul MacCormack: 1:32:37

very much so very

Trent Manning: 1:32:39

that's

Paul MacCormack: 1:32:40

Yeah, because your power of Concentration will eventually it's just like working a muscle, Right. It's the more reps you do in the gym the stronger your muscle gets and the more reps you do on a cushion the stronger your mind gets and then the more focused your mind gets and the more and The more disciplined you get at it and the more clarity you will find and like why it said the less reactivity the You'll be friendlier and love more loving to the yourself and people around. Like those are all just the things that happen naturally when you do it. And, and you don't, you have a, like a basic intention of all that stuff, but it's not something you're trying to do. just something that happens. And, and, and that's the, that's the gift of it really over time.

Wyatt Harris: 1:33:25

How about how about this? You know, there's, he mentioned Paul, you use the term Olympic level. Yeah. I've definitely heard that kind of term before, and it's this thing can appear to be hierarchical or goal based, and it really just is not. again, from something that gets said in the headless way is, I can't I can't see But I don't have a head any better than you can, you know, so if, if outside of that specific way of seeing, I mean, you know, I can't focus on my breath, you know, theoretically. Any better than you can, you know, at least in the moment, you know, that kind of takes me back to the first thing I said, is this is a science of the 1st person. It's a only you are only you are here at center and, you know, no, I can't see it better than you. You know what I'm saying? It's all about your 1st person perspective and figuring that out. So the idea that you can do it wrong. I really like what Paul said about, it's just the, the intention to do it. And, and for all the,

Paul MacCormack: 1:34:32

That competitiveness over time, it's really just another form of judgment, like judging others and judging yourself and judging your how well you're doing. And, and then again, that's just a habit. And you just recognize that habit and you go, you know what? Sometimes it's good to be competitive. Sometimes it's good to get out and do things and play games and sports and have fun. But if you're a slave to that all your life, it's pretty tiresome.

Wyatt Harris: 1:35:00

I, I can have a pretty obsessive tendencies shall we say, and the thing, one of the things I really love about contemplative practice is that it is, it is obsession resistant. Not that you can't obsess over it, but it loses like the effect

Paul MacCormack: 1:35:16

There you

Wyatt Harris: 1:35:16

if you obsess over it, you know what I mean? if, you know, when you start, if you start getting some benefit from it, you know, the, if you start fixating and obsessing over it, it loses the effect a little bit in it, it can just become a new ego center, you know? So I would say that that's, it's just another, you know, like Sam Harris would say, it's just yet another thing to be mindful of you know, if that guy you described saying, wow, am I. Doing this wrong. Okay. Well, there's, that's just a thought. That's a piece of language. There's probably a body sensation associated with it. And it's it kind of comes back to this joke. That's you know, you ask a Buddhist, what's the meaning of life? And they say, who's asking it's it's pointing back right to the space, right? That's, that's it. You know?

Trent Manning: 1:36:10

Good. Why, one thing you were talking about how, you know, this helped you not react, and something I thought when you were saying that was, did you notice that initially or was it, you know, After you didn't react, you know, 10 minutes later you said, wow, I reacted different than I did last time.

Wyatt Harris: 1:36:36

it's I mean, there's been a few situations where you know, my wife and I have had conversations that have gone better than they used to, you know, and that's to her credit as well. But there is that realization. But then I would say that the, the, the main thing is you see it about to happen and then it's like, pause, there's like a pause menu. It just happens. And you're like, Oh, I don't have to get on the train, you know? And that happens. That happens pretty, I don't want to say quickly because it's individual, but I would say that that's that's a benefit that I would expect to receive upon, you know, after a period of practicing just the most basic form of, of the meditation, that, you know, that Paul would teach you, you know?

Paul MacCormack: 1:37:23

I think it's important to, just as an addendum to that, to allow yourself to really marinate in the moments when you realize they happen. Especially like you mentioned, Wyatt, like conversation with a spouse or family member that usually would be contentious and reactive and, and for, it can be incredibly powerful for both parties to kind of pause at the end of an interaction that goes well. And, and say to each other how different that felt and how much better that felt and didn't like how much less reactive it was and how much more space we have now and how like how less constricted I feel and how less fearful I feel now, as opposed to the way we did it before. And because there's a lot of studies and a lot of research to show that it's, it takes 10 times more effort to get good stuff to stick in our heads. As it does to negative stuff, we have a negativity bias that we, we, it's way easier for us to internalize negativity than it is good stuff. And so for good stuff to stick, you really have to become aware of it. You have to elevate it and really see it for what it was and really kind of bask in it for a bit. And, and because when you do that, it strengthens all the connections and you're first far more apt to do it again. And that's the trick, right?

Trent Manning: 1:38:56

that's, that's really, really good. That's some good stuff there.

Wyatt Harris: 1:39:00

And so when something goes well, it's Oh, once again, It's just another thing to be mindful of, you know? Oh,

Paul MacCormack: 1:39:08

it's better when it goes well. It just, I don't like to attach things to it, but especially in relationships and especially it's just easier. It just is. And yeah.

Trent Manning: 1:39:18

I had another thing that I thought of, but you know, we're on a roll and I didn't want to interrupt you, but it

Wyatt Harris: 1:39:24

Oh, thank God we were on a roll. Cool. What's up?

Trent Manning: 1:39:27

of the your experience. So, this is the the story. Me and my girlfriend went to a really nice place and there's another couple that we knew went to the exact same place at the exact same time. And the weather was not the best, but we just had the best time. And the other couple said how miserable it was, how horrible it was, you know, and everything's the same. So it's, you know, it's all about your mindset going into it. Well,

Paul MacCormack: 1:40:04

more like, how was your day beforehand? What did you go through

Trent Manning: 1:40:08

yeah, yeah,

Paul MacCormack: 1:40:08

Right. And, and I think, I think the more you become mindful in your life and the more you see, Maybe those habits and those, that tendency to look at things negatively in your own self, and then you can offer yourself a little bit of space and forgiveness. And then you can see that in others. And you can be curious about it and you can go, huh, isn't that funny how we both came to the same restaurant and we thought it was great and they thought it sucked,

Trent Manning: 1:40:38

hmm.

Paul MacCormack: 1:40:39

but that's all you can just be curious about it. And you can, you can go, yeah, well, you know what, maybe they just weren't in the right frame of mind, or maybe they got allergic to something last time they were eating that stuff, or it could be anything. right. But then you just let it go. And then you don't form a judgment or opinion about them. You just go, Hmm. Isn't that interesting?

Wyatt Harris: 1:40:59

Yeah. Because it, it has this like that situation is, is great and it's good to go. Oh, wow. We were, we succeeded in enjoying ourselves and they did not, and we can be grateful for that. But then there's that tendency like Paul was saying of, of, you know, Leaning into judgment,

Paul MacCormack: 1:41:14

Mm.

Wyatt Harris: 1:41:15

even start to form. Okay, great. Now I'm gonna form a self-center over here of, of there's superiority arising, and, you know, and it's, it's, it's double sided. You can be happy for your own, you know, great. You managed to enjoy yourself. Fantastic. And they didn't. And wow. Who knows what they're going

Paul MacCormack: 1:41:33

be you. Next time you could be the one having the terrible time. Who

Trent Manning: 1:41:36

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. Very true. Mhm.

Paul MacCormack: 1:41:39

But you're right, Trent. I mean, how we experience the world goes through so many filters and lenses within ourselves that we've spent a lifetime creating. And the way I see it is not the way you see it. And it's not the way Wyatt sees it. And it's not the way anyone sees it. But part of the practice is just starting to recognize all those filters and lenses and and you start to realize that the way you always held something is maybe not true. And maybe it's not the way it is, and maybe you were wrong and that's fine.

Trent Manning: 1:42:18

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul MacCormack: 1:42:19

and you can adopt a different viewpoint. Or you can let go. You can let go of an opinion. That's another big part of mindfulness. Letting go of the need to be right. And letting go of opinions. Because again, when you, when you really consciously look at our opinions, they're not ours anyway, we just borrow them from someone else. We saw it on the news, we read a book, we, we, we picked it up from parents. We, it's we, we just put it in our backpack and we carry it with us. Right. But it's not ours. We didn't, it wasn't an original idea that I'm a conservative Republican or a left leaning Democrat. I'm, that's just something I figured out along the way. And my parents probably told me it was a good idea to do it this way. So I

Trent Manning: 1:43:05

Mhm.

Paul MacCormack: 1:43:06

And when you think about it that way, And then you think about how much suffering holding on to all that causes in the world and how holding on to all that identity and all that, this, well, I am that and I am right. And I, that is my opinion and it's worth everything. How much suffering does that cost in our world?

Trent Manning: 1:43:31

yeah,

Paul MacCormack: 1:43:32

It's it, right? It's all of it. It's what causes wars. It's what causes suffering, like poverty is what causes everything. And it's just. our desire to attach ourselves to something and feel like our opinion matters and that we need to be right. Which, in the end of the day, when you're lying on your deathbed, doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Trent Manning: 1:43:51

Yeah, no, that's some good stuff. Good stuff. Anything else y'all want to add before we wrap it up here?

Paul MacCormack: 1:43:59

I don't think so. We talked and we kept going

Wyatt Harris: 1:44:03

how you were talking about you know, when you start getting into Buddhism, there's a lot of mentions of you know, conditioned causes and dependent co origination, the way everything is caused by everything else. You know, and the more that you pay attention to that and are mindful of that in your dealings with people around you, you know, when you're maybe just at work with your coworkers and you see the social sort of matrix forming and you see everybody, you know, sharing their opinions and, you know, saying their opinions at each other and you, you see, you know, what's happening, it's all these causes and conditions coming together to meet. And you can, you look at, you can look at your golf course and see the same thing. Everything is just inside this, this causal matrix. And the more you see that, I think the more compassion you feel for, feel for people, you know?

Paul MacCormack: 1:44:56

For sure.

Wyatt Harris: 1:44:57

Dude, thanks for letting us talk about this.

Trent Manning: 1:44:59

No, this is, I mean, this has been, it's been so good. So great. And I really appreciate both of y'all for coming on and talking about this and enlightening the listeners. And hopefully they want to go on that journey.

Paul MacCormack: 1:45:15

Yeah.

Trent Manning: 1:45:16

so how would a listener get a hold of either one of you?

Paul MacCormack: 1:45:20

for me personally Twitter is somewhere I usually spend far too much time. So, at mindful super is, is the handle there. I also have I also have a website. It's called Mindful Island Consulting, is the name of the company I run on the side. And if anyone is interested, if they listen to this podcast and if they're at all interested in a really easy way and an easy entry point, they can actually go to that website, sign up as a subscriber to it. And there is an introductory course that I taught,

Trent Manning: 1:45:57

Oh, okay. Nice.

Paul MacCormack: 1:45:58

that you can download and listen to. And it's, it's just like little, it's broken into a 20 minute talk and a little 10 minute meditation with that talk. So it's a really, really easy way to enter into it. And it's free and you don't have to pay for it. The only, the only thing you might get is an email from me occasionally.

Trent Manning: 1:46:20

Yeah. Nice. Awesome. Quiet. Oh

Wyatt Harris: 1:46:25

if you want to find me Twitter at turf imposter. Yes. And I don't have a meditation course and I probably shouldn't. But if anyone wants to talk about this stuff I would, I would love to you know, me, you know, I messaged Paul semi regularly bothering him about this. And it's, you know, always very validating to talk about this with other people that are making the same noises. So,

Trent Manning: 1:46:45

yeah, yeah, for sure. And I briefly heard y'all mentioned something about WhatsApp. Y'all got a WhatsApp. Group going or something?

Wyatt Harris: 1:46:53

we

Paul MacCormack: 1:46:54

No, we were just, we were just talking back.

Trent Manning: 1:46:55

y'all were talking. So,

Paul MacCormack: 1:46:57

But if everyone

Wyatt Harris: 1:46:58

Yeah, because he's,

Paul MacCormack: 1:46:59

there's two of us.

Wyatt Harris: 1:47:00

Canada.

Trent Manning: 1:47:01

well, right, right, right. Yeah. Michael Henderson at Pebble Beach. Yeah. Pebble Beach. He recommended to me at Christmas that we do a mental health WhatsApp group. And I'm all for it. I just didn't, didn't set it up and I kind of feel bad about that, you know, but so anyway, that will happen before this episode drops. And if any of the listeners are interested, you can find me on Twitter or Facebook. at Realturftechs at gmail. com. Thank you again, Paul. Thank you, Wyatt. I can't appreciate you enough.

Paul MacCormack: 1:47:44

much for having me. It

Wyatt Harris: 1:47:45

Yeah, thank you.

Trent Manning: 1:47:46

All right. thank you so much for listening to the Reel turf techs podcast. I hope you learned something today. Don't forget to subscribe. If you have any topics you'd like to discuss, or you'd like to be a guest, find us on Twitter at Reel turf techs.