Reel Turf Techs Podcast

Episode 120: Outside the Shop: Frank Rossi

• Trent Manning • Episode 120

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Welcome to Episode 120 of the Reel Turf Techs Podcast! Join us for an episode of Frankly Speaking, as host Frank Rossi, Ph.D. sits down with our own Trent Manning, (CTEM), to discuss the intricacies and evolution of turf equipment management.


The conversation spans the role of technology in turf management, effective communication, and professional development opportunities for young people entering the field.


Listen in as Trent and Frank explore the dynamics between equipment managers and superintendents, tackle the challenges posed by rapidly advancing technology, and break down the critical aspects of reel theory and bed knife attitudes. They also discuss the implications of market consolidation among turf equipment manufacturers and its impact on innovation and costs.

 Don't miss this enlightening conversation hosted by industry legend Frank Rossi. 



Trent Manning:

welcome to the reel turf techs podcast for the technician that wants to get reel follow along. As we talk to industry professionals and address hot topics that we all face along the way we'll learn tips and tricks. I'm your host, Trent. Manning let's have some Welcome to the real turf techs podcast. Episode one 20. This episode is going to be a little different. I sat down with Frank Rossi, P H D associate professor. At Cornell university for an episode of frankly speaking. Where we talk about the importance of effective communication and the professional development. Opportunities available for young people in our field. We also narrowed out on the critical aspects of real theory. And bed knife, attitude. I hope you enjoy.

Frank Rossi:

Welcome to frankly speaking. Trent Manning. I see C. T. E. M. That's does that mean certified turf grass equipment manager? Yes. Yeah, I had to think about that for a minute because we usually shorten it to turf. Instead of turf grass, but yeah, okay. So certified turf equipment manager and you, and so this is very good place to start. So in your line of work, the word turf doesn't necessarily have this synthetic connotation. No, it does not. Cause all we deal with is the, the natural stuff. All right, that's right. All right. Anyway, welcome to frankly speaking, Trent. It's so great that we got a chance to do this and I'll just start out by, we're going to get to know you a little bit, but I want to get this disclaimer out of the way. I spent the first, you know, 15 years of my life working in golf course shops, and I'm sure it's the reason my language isn't as good as my mother would have liked it to be. Uh, at my even at my age now, so I was raised around a golf course shop. I think much like you were As a kid working there and all the way to assistant superintendent Um, and I want to say that my relationships with equipment managers or as we you know, sort of colloquially call mechanics golf course mechanics Wasn't always very good. I would just say full disclosure. I might not have been the easiest on equipment. I could have been a little bit more careful when I used it. And so as a result, I was often At the brunt end of being sort of scolded, which I certainly deserved and occasionally would step back while something was thrown, but I'm sure it wasn't thrown necessarily in my direction, Trent. So I just wanted to start out by giving you a perspective on sort of my experience of equipment managers, but how pleased I am to see the professionalism, uh, come along so far as it has. Now I'm going to shut up. You're a lifelong Georgian. Looks like you grew up in the golf business. You said this business found you. You didn't find it. So let's take it from there. How did this business find you? I'll get into that, but I first want to address what you were talking about. And you are what we call that guy. And, and that's no offense to the women out there, because it's never women. That are that person. So it is a guy, it's always a guy and it's that guy. Um, and we talk about that guy on a daily basis on the WhatsApp group. The, the real turf Texas. Yeah. So anyway, that's good. We're going to get back to that topic in a minute, but tell me a little bit about growing up in this business in Georgia. Yeah. So I just got lucky, I guess. You know, I don't know. I've really enjoyed my career. At the golf course, a good friend of mine in high school, he lived in the same neighborhood as the mechanic that worked at Sudden Down Creek golf club. And I was 16 and I needed a job and they were paying like 2 more an hour than minimum wage. And so all our other friends are making a minimum wage. And I said, man, that sounds really good. You get to work outside, you get to work with your hands. And obviously I kind of grew up in a rural part of North Georgia and I was outside all the time and I really enjoyed the outdoors. I still do enjoy the outdoors. And so you, you got some exposure, but then you went to school at the Gwinnett. Yes. So while I was still working in the shop at the golf course, you know, I started on the crew, you know, raking bunkers, mowing greens, all those things. Yeah. That any crew person would do and then work my way up to assistant mechanic and during that time, Gwinnett Tech started a program similar to what they had at Lake City at the time. And I went there in the evenings after work and completed those, uh, that continuing education on. And so the. There actually was, uh, information about real theory, R E E L theory. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A whole class devoted to real theory. This is so great. Um, especially when you consider that's probably a class more superintendents probably should take as well to understand how reels work. Cause I'm not always sure everybody understands exactly how real mowers function. So it's really fascinating that they're Uh, training a whole, I mean, it would seem to me to make sense. This is sometimes what separates an exceptional equipment manager from an average equipment manager is their ability to really set the real. So you've been at the same place your entire career. No, no, I had a, an eight year hiatus. I left the golf course and I went to work for a company building ball fields, still natural turf. And I was kind of the project construction manager. So I did all the laser grading of, you know, the entire field, or we'd do a lot of infields for, uh, local high schools and municipalities. And then I also worked with a company that built golf courses as their mechanic. And that was not a lot of fun. The building, the golf course was cool, but working on heavy equipment, not my thing. Okay. Dozers and dump trucks and big old tires. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a totally different kind of, uh, kind of work. So, so, so you're on a golf course, you leave for a bunch of years, you look, sounds like you get into project management a little bit and also keep, keep your mechanical skills going. What brought you back? Uh, just opportunity, I guess. Um, I also worked for a Toro distributor as a mobile service tech for a couple of years and I was on the road a lot. I was home almost every night, but my kids were young. I was not getting to, you know, I'd leave before they would get up and I was, they were in bed when I got home. So I wasn't getting to spend much time with them and maybe it's interesting or not. When I left here in oh two, The mechanic that trained me replaced me and then he retired in 2010 and I replaced him. So our director of agronomy that's been here since 1988, he's had three mechanics including me. And you twice. Yes, he's had me twice. Yeah. And that's Courtney Young. That is Courtney Young. And so, yeah, this, that's right. CTCS, since we're talking letters after name, there's, there's lots of ways to go here, but let's start out with the early years in, in your career, right? Cause one of the things that I've really appreciated, uh, that's happened, you know, Hector sort of might've got it going at turf net years ago, uh, other people were promoting it, certainly the big grant to the GCSA from the Melrose foundation help. But early on, did you feel like, uh, being a golf course mechanic, uh, you know, was a career that you would sort of expand and stay in? I mean, you did leave, but then you did come back. Did you see the progress of it as a profession from when you were there the first time to when you eventually came back? No, I would, yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't really think that was a career. That was just something I could do and I enjoyed and it paid. Okay. So I'll just keep doing it. And then yeah, the better opportunity came along to be a project manager. I said, yeah, I'll jump on that. So I was kind of jumping from one thing to one thing. And I really do like working for Courtney. So it was easier, I guess, to come back here. But honestly, it wouldn't until I came back in 2010 that I realized this can really be a career and you know, it wasn't too long after that, the I. G. SEMA emerged with GCSA and made the equipment manager designation and, and those things started rolling and since then it's been, you know, it's, it's not a day since then. The recognition we get. Yeah. And, and the opportunities. I mean, I think one of the things that the entire industry is struggling with is, you know, availability and cost and quality of, of, of, uh, the next generation labor force. Right. And I think, uh, I think, uh, equipment managers, I think are in a really interesting position because wouldn't you say more than anything else, obviously the professionalism is there. But the amount of technology and organizing different types of equipment, Trent, I'm thinking, you know, years ago when I was on the course, maybe you had something that was electric somewhere on a piece of equipment, but most of it was all engine and real and metal work. And I bet you now two thirds of your work is electrical and That itself is probably made it a little bit more, uh, challenging, but I also think it's an opportunity for young people to use technology in the workplace. Maybe where working on the grounds crew does it. I wonder what you think about that as a career opportunities for people who want to do the line of work you're in using technology. I definitely think it will help get more younger people that are tech savvy into our industry. Because that's definitely where it's going. And a quick story. I remember, and this was late nineties, John Deere had came out with a mower and it had a controller on it, an ECM, um, electronic control module. And the first, all the salesmen in my area anyway, was saying, this is not a computer. Because, you know, everybody was scared of computers on machines back then, but, and that was the first thing out of their mouth. So this is not a computer. It just takes inputs and gives appropriate outputs. So, you know, I mean, it's a computer, but, you know, it's got a microprocessor in it and all these things, but it is not a computer. I just, you know, remember that. And I think it's, yeah, go ahead. I think a lot of people. you know, that are mechanically inclined and come up through, before me, seventies, eighties and early nineties were pretty intimidated by technology. And but unfortunately, that's something that we have to do to kind of keep up with where we're at today. And as it's, I think it's exceptionally well put. And I would say, you know, You're getting right at the heart of, uh, one of the topics that I started off with, which is stereotyping, right? Superintendents are stereotyped as Carl Spackler. And, and equipment managers are stereotyped by the guys that I work for throwing stuff at me, you know, for being, for being that guy, right? And what, what I think we know now is this has a level of professionalism associated with it, but also, probably like superintendents, You probably have found that communication skills are more important than maybe you originally thought. Um, I'm wondering if you couldn't talk a little bit about really the same thing that I think plagues a lot of superintendents is their ability to effectively communicate, you know, important priorities and things, not only to their workforce, but to golfers. I'm wondering about the value of communication from your perspective as a, as a really modern equipment manager. Yeah, Communication is the most important thing, honestly. And whether it's between you and the superintendent, you and the crew, and it's having that open communication. And if the superintendent comes to me and asks, What do you think about this? To get my input, you know, that creates buy in for me. And it's easier for me to get behind what he's doing, and If I own just a tiny part of that too, and I'm giving him my opinion as far as working with the crew. I do think I was kind of taught the old school way to be the angry mechanic that threw stuff, you know, that was just the way it was back then. But since I have learned, you get, you get a whole lot more from people if you just engage positively with them and, you know, talk to them. In the morning in the evening, not just when they bring you a piece of broken equipment because there is a dynamic that gets set up a lot of golf courses where it's the mechanic against everybody else and everybody else is going to destroy all of his equipment and all he's going to do is fix it and you know, it's an uncomfortable place to be in when that gets set up. So when you thank you for bringing up the relationship with the superintendent and I'll get we'll take a break after this. When you start interacting with superintendents, at least when I was doing some mower research, in particular, where we're doing distance, you know, uh, fences behind dead center on a reel, for example, where the bed knife sits. I realized many superintendents would get that glazed over look on their face and really not have any idea what I was talking about. When I first started talking about this 20 years ago, uh, as we researched it as a component for, uh, You know, causing basal rod anthracnose problems when you talk to superintendents and you do so, I would imagine in some of your traveling around with your toro thing, obviously, Courtney is your most, you know, comfortable example. But what happens when you're talking to, you know, if you were talking to an equipment manager, he was trying to figure out a way to say something to his superintendent, but sort of knows that the superintendent doesn't fully understand it. But the superintendent thinks they understand, understand it. So how does an equipment manager navigate something sometimes where you know what you sort of need to have, but you're trying to communicate something that maybe might be hard for the superintendent to get their hands around? That's a really tough question. Yeah, that's right. I don't know the best way to, you know, Because I kind of get where you're going and a lot of superintendents might not be open to learning new things or they think they already have it figured out and they don't want to be bothered with some of that stuff. That's, you know, some, and maybe I'm being stereotypical, but that's, uh, some of the things that I have experienced. But it's one of the things that I really like about working with Courtney. He is very knowledgeable about what I do And I've heard plenty of superintendents say I can do what the assistant superintendent does But I can't do what the equipment manager does and I think that's very true in a lot of places but here Courtney could do my job just as good as I could probably but It's really nice to have that person to go talk to. So for the superintendents listening, I would encourage them to get more educated on real theory behind center distance, you know, all the, all the things that, that we do so they can better understand it. And with that being said, I think it's good. I mean, Courtney's brought me to the side or pulled me over here to, you know, look at this. We're looking at rhizomes. We're looking at stolens, you know, and not, I'm not an expert on any of that stuff, but at least I have the basic idea and I understand why we top dress. And I think that's really important for a mechanic to understand. That's right, especially Well understand and learn to accept that that is a way to destroy the fine work you do With with the great real so so Trent, let me take a minute introduce you again I'm with Trent Manning host of the real turf text podcast Over a hundred episodes. So obviously With many downloads, 30, 000 downloads over just a few years of doing it, Trent, there obviously is a hunger, uh, for information there. So let's start with the basic stuff. Um, what are the kinds of basic things that if you were talking to a, a young person who likes working on a crew, but might feel attracted to the equipment area, where would be some of the first, uh, Things you'd want to learn when, you know, like you went back and learned about electrical stuff and real theory. And I'm assuming there's some understanding that everybody gets the basics of an internal combustion engine and a starter and a pull cord and all that baloney. What kinds of, uh, professional development things would you tell young people to start to dip their toes into? I don't, anything you can, whether, you know, whether it's something, you know, official. I don't know of too many official programs anymore. I know Lake city had done away with their thing. Um, I do think there's a few of them out there. I think Ohio state has something going, Ed Nagel, and there's probably some opportunities out there, but honestly, I think just jumping in and tearing stuff apart and putting it back together. And if you work at a golf course, start bugging the. The equipment manager there asking him questions. How does this work? How does that work? Kind of see what he's doing and that's usually the way we get you in because it's really hard to find an assistant technician and a lot of times we pull from the crew and that's The people we're pulling are the ones that are asking us questions or we see them working on their personal vehicle in the parking lot And we say, well, this person has a little bit of mechanical aptitude. Let's give them a shot. And we have a lot of people in the industry that came from automotive, some from motorcycle industry, some from the aircraft industry. And, you know, mechanics, there's mechanics. The only thing we do different is the cutting unit and real theory. So that's, that's, that's If you're going to learn anything, I would say start there because that's kind of our, our bread and butter. Yeah. And, and thank you. Yeah. So, so I, I agree, but let me challenge you one more piece here. And I, where I was leading to was this, I mean, like I said earlier, used to be you'd strain to find something electrical. Now we may be confronting a complete electrification of the fleet, except, you know, the biggest pieces of equipment that, All As you just said, you don't want to work on those dump trucks anyway. So, so what's happening in your area, Trent, to address the potential that electrification, uh, is going to bring? I mean, you're going to be basically going from turning wrenches to using pliers and plugging computer, uh, you know, laptops into things. Does that present some potential? unique professional development challenges that switch in equipment types. Yeah. And I think that's something as an industry, we're going to have to, uh, think about and get some continuing education in place. So that'll be something I think we'll be seeing at the trade show and conference is classes like that. We already have some about, uh, working with technology and some robotic stuff, some coding things, but it's just going to be more and more and more. And I mean, just for instance, I know how to run a CNC machine and I have a 3d printer, you know, so I'm trying to get my hands kind of wet and or feet wet and all those things just because. G code is pretty standard and I don't know what robotics mowers use, but I'm sure it's something pretty similar to G code and which is the same as CNC or 3d printing. And that way we can tell the mower where to go and how long, how long to be over there. That's right. Okay. So you, this is very interesting. You really see the equipment manager playing an integral role in the adoption of something like autonomous mowing, for example. Oh, for sure. And just like, uh, John Patterson, he's at Atlanta Athletic Club, and he's went all in on the Husqvarna robotic mowers, and they're mowing their whole, uh, short game area. With robotic mowers from, I think Husker Varna and he's all in on it and he's doing the training. He does the setup, he trains the crew on, you know, what you do. If you run into one, how to stop it, how to move it, you know, those kinds of things. And the other thing I think golfers really enjoy seeing them on the course. You know, I'm not going to get in the debate. If you know what's better. Electric or a human out there mowing. But, uh, appearance wise, I think people say, Oh, this is a good idea. Well, and I also think I've heard from people, Trent say they really appreciate the quiet. And, and the technology we would say is still really in its infancy stage from my perspective. I don't want, I, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't expecting to go down the autonomous mowing route. But I did want to get into mowers and real units in particular, because we've been talking about the equipment managers end of this, but again, you know, you're a, you know, you, you talk to a lot of equipment managers, you are, uh, you know, a traveling, uh, sort of service person as well. So you interact with a lot of equipment managers. I have a feeling sometimes that on the superintendent end, Um, they can tell you what they want sometimes, like I want it to cut better or I want it to lower the height or boy, it doesn't seem like the after cut is good here. The prism has given us a lot more, um, sort of knowledge, uh, and I feel like sometimes they people don't understand how real mowers work and sort of what's involved. And speaking of debates, The common debate is, you know, gap or no gap, relief or no relief. So let's start with some simple aspects of the way you approach the relationship between the real, uh, and the bed knife. When you feel like a mower is, uh, set up right and you're ready to walk away from it and they're going to go cut the greens at Augusta. What you're looking for in that real. So a superintendent can hear what an expert equipment manager is looking for when that real set up to go. Do you have time for a two hour podcast? I know it's a good question. How do you, how do you give it to me in a sort of elevator speech where I'll give you a few minutes. To describe something now, listen, it's, it's 178 years old since Edwin budding invented the damn thing. You'd think we'd understand it by now. It's not like it's cutting edge, so to speak technology. So give it to me straight Trent, but we don't have two hours. Okay. All right. So this is something I say a good bit. We're still calling it real theory and I'm not the smartest person in the room, but. I learned a theory is not proven. If it's proven, it's a law. So I think even though this, the real has been around for a long time, I think a lot of people have been mis educated and this is something I'm just finding out in the last three months that a lot of people have been mis educated when it comes to bed knife attitude and bed knife angle. And it being more aggressive or not, uh, we're going to be doing a class at, uh, conference and show this year just on that, because I think a lot of us have been taught wrong, but yeah, so we can get into that more later, but to try to answer your question, I think it does depend on what the manufacturer calls for. So, and there's, there's the reason so Toro. They call for light contact and Toro uses a standard ball bearing to rotate the reel in the housing. John Deere calls for a two thousandths clearance between reel and bed knife. John Deere uses a tapered roller bearing with a spring. When the John Deere is spinning with a, you know, hydraulic motor, electric motor spinning this reel, that reel is moving up and down more than a Toro reel. And Jacobson's the same way with the tapered roller bearings, unless they've changed recently. I apologize, I haven't had Jacobson in several years. But nobody does. That's part of the problem. Yeah, no, that, yeah, it is a problem. Yes. That's a whole nother podcast. Um, but so far as clearance and no clearance, that that's my opinion on clearance and no clearance clearance. Okay. Okay. So, so what you're saying is, uh, follow the way the equipment, uh, manufacturers are recommending doing this. Um, because it's aligned with the way they know their piece of equipment, uh, operates, um, and will operate most effectively. And so while some might call for it, uh, some, some space, some don't, uh, and it has to do, I guess I didn't realize this with bearings, but I'm more interested in how we've been miseducated. So. I, I, I probably have enough information to be dangerous here, but I want to wrap up this middle segment with, with this question. As the real diameter shrinks, which, you know, maybe as we spin more, it happens more, I don't know. Backlapping has fallen out of favor. Either way, metal's gonna wear down eventually, uh, maybe from sand top dressing or whatever else is happening. And slowly but surely, to keep the, angle of attack. Appropriate for the real mower to work where the blade contacts the, the, bed knife. You pull the bed knife back a little bit and change the attitude so that when the reel's coming down, it meets it, being it at a, at a smaller diameter. Do I have that right or did I learn that piece wrong? Let's start with sort of what happens Naturally. And then we'll talk about the way we can mess around with it. All right. So it depends on what cutting unit you're talking about, if you have that correct or not. So Toro, when they came out with the DPA cutting unit, they got a patent that the behind center distance would stay consistent. It doesn't say the same, but it says consistent. throughout the life of the real, which it does. And I've tested this and it moves about 5, 000 throughout the life of the real, which I would say that's pretty consistent. That's

pretty

Trent Manning:

consistent. I mean, that's a, you know, a human hair and a half, right? That's, that's, that's pretty, pretty consistent. So on, and John Deere, they also got this patent. On their cutting units, on the QA5s, they have an eccentric, a cam, that you flip when the reel gets to 4. 8. And that re establishes the bed knife attitude. And as the reel wears, your attitude is getting less with a John Deere, when the John Deere rear roller, adjust the height of cut. And it also, when you flip that cam, John Deere tells you that you may need to raise your front roller. Because if you flip the cam, you don't raise the front roller, you're actually in front of center on your bed knife. And then you have all these different bed knives too. You have a standard length bed knife extended, and now there's a super extended bed knife, which is all going to change how aggressive your cut is. Because that affects your behind center distance. I love this stuff. I bet you we've lost half the listeners, but I don't care

Frank Rossi:

because we studied this for a while and to listen to you wax on about this warms my heart. So let me, let me take it one more step and then we'll take a break. Okay. So, um, as I've learned it, and there's been some articles that have shown it as well. John Deere in particular, let's pick on them. Their bed knife can actually be as far front as almost every other bed knife when they come out of the factory. Uh, you can set that John Deere up so that the bed knife will be, uh, in, uh, slightly at or in front of center distance, or not very far back. And this has resulted in a significantly lower amount of sand being picked up in like the trial that Nikolai and Raan did with Hathaway, uh, many years ago. So, are there reasons, without looking at, um, where of the reel, where a superintendent or you might think it's a good idea to pull the bedknife back from the center distance, alter the angle of attack of the reel, uh, on purpose Um, knowing you won't pick up any sand or anything, would you do that? Make that adjustment if the real, it didn't require it in any way for some particular reason that I might not be thinking of, like maybe you get a better cut. Let me know. Well, yeah. So, and I think that is true and we were talked correctly about that. The, the greater the behind center distance, the better the cut is. But it could lead to a worse after cut appearance and it can lead to more scalping the, you know, just me being in the South, we oversee their fairways with ryegrass. I like to have a really aggressive bed knife attitude angle on ryegrass because it's so soft and it lays over so easy on Bermuda in the spring. I run a pretty aggressive attitude. When it's first coming out of dormancy, and then by mid July, I'm pretty flat on my attitude. Okay, I'm with Trent Manning, Certified Turf Equipment Manager at Sitting Down Creek in Georgia, and we just did a little bit of a deep dive. We're going to come up for Mayor after this message.

Trent Manning:

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Frank Rossi:

First wrapping up the real conversation. The behind center distance stuff and the real attitude things is, is of course, um, Very interesting. And as you said, we could do a couple hours on this and I've talked about it. As a researcher for a really long time, and I'm not always sure people understood it. I know it got their attention when, you know, basal rod anthracnose started to be a problem when you had too aggressive of an angle of attack, but let's talk about something that's very been commonplace For a while since electrical reels have come to the market, but I don't hear people talking about it What is your perception Trent of the importance of frequency of clip? Let's start with greens versus uh, fairways and tee height. Uh, is frequency of clip more or less valuable that it has to be equal? Is that one of those things we were taught that's wrong? That height of cut should equal frequency of clip? Talk to me a little bit about your thinking about frequency of clip when you approach this topic. I think matching frequency of clip to the height of cut, you know, within 10 percent is a fair statement until. you get below 125. Once you get below 125, I don't think it matters. And I mean, the other thing, there's no manufacturer making, um, a setup where you can spin a real blade fast enough to get your quality or your clip down to 0. 85, you know, or whatever, you know, they don't go that low. That's right, but at the higher heights of cut like fairways you think it is important I think it's really important and I think it's more important on cool season grasses because they tend to be a little limper if you will and They blow around more than a lot of the warm seasons do so I think it's really important on those and I've seen guys just talking recently about You know, somebody was using a 14 bladed reel mowing T's at 750 and that just don't work because that leaf blade is getting hit 4, 200 times a second, you know, before it gets cut, you know, I don't know. It's just too much. So I think it is important. Yeah. And that's one of those things that. I wonder if you'd classify that in something that we don't really understand very well, or yeah, obviously people do those things. You know, the, the assumption is more is better, right? More, more blades. I remember when I talked to a engineer at Toro that will remain nameless or engineer at Jake, you know, somebody had a, uh, you know, eight blade or 10 bladed reel. And so then the next company said, well, we'll just make 11 bladed reel because it's more. And people think it's better. Now, listen, um, as we start to wrap up our conversation for today, I'll, I, you know, I really appreciate you taking the time, but I don't get to talk to people, uh, very often who have their own podcast. And I can tell you, uh, I have two things going on when I'm doing my podcast and I want to sort of hear about it from you. One is I have my own ideas about sort of the vision for the industry and the, you know, things I like to talk about. And, um, uh, I like to use it as a way to promote that, but I also use it as a way to learn a ton of stuff. I have learned an enormous amount from the, you know, 200 episodes, 10 years of doing this thing. I can't tell you the amount of stuff I've learned. I probably couldn't even write it down. But after a hundred episodes of doing real turf tech stuff, let me get, can you give me like a, let's see if we can do a top three things that have been most, uh, valuable to you, uh, in doing the podcast, whether it's things you learned or people coming up to you and saying, man, I really like listening to you. I. You know, I personally get that a fair amount. I get people to give me some stupid looks, which means I know they think I'm a jerk, uh, which I can live with as well. Um, what are some of, let's start with maybe three things that doing the podcast has either taught you or feel like you've been really effective in promoting. Some of the, just a few things. So I had a listener, I met him in the Carolinas, uh, their show. And he came up to me and he said, your podcast has changed my life. And I had no idea starting this, you know, that I would hear that and where he was coming from, he says, before I heard your podcast, I thought I was all alone and ends up, there's a bunch of other people just like me out there. You know, a single person in the shop doing their thing, grinding, grinding, grinding. Um, so that was awesome. We've also had people reach out on mental health stuff. Um, I did a few mental health episodes and they were not the most popular episodes, but I don't care because that's helping people. I'm not, I'm not out here to get, you know, views or downloads or any of that thing. I'm, I'm here because I like helping and a lot of golf course, mechanics, technicians, whatever you want to call us. We like helping other people. And the main reason I started this podcast, I mean, the only reason is podcasts was becoming more popular. And I thought nobody has a podcast for, uh, technicians. And I even approached a few people that were already doing a podcast. Say, Hey, you should do one for, uh, technicians. And they said, Oh yeah, that's a great idea. And then nothing ever happened. So I just picked the ball up and run with it. So here we are. Yeah. So listen, uh, really, and I gotta tell you, it's, I couldn't agree more. Uh, this, you know, the equipment managers, uh, much like superintendents, I think in a more quiet way. Uh, you know, we're in you're in the back room of the back of the house shop, right? I mean when you think about superintendents as back of the house like you think about a chef You know as back of the house, right? And maybe the clubhouse manager or the maitre d as or the golf pro as front of the house The equipment managers are in the back of the back of the house usually and often as you said Work, uh, very solitary, right? I hadn't thought about that Until you've been mentioning it recently, and I'm wondering if that isn't something that all crews could do a better job of sometimes is including the equipment manager as part of the team, not somebody, you know, there's somebody that's there at the morning meeting, right? Or somebody that has their thing on the task tracker. So it's clear what they're working on, right? Because I would imagine after being there a long time, you, you know, on certain days, I'm doing PM on this, this, this, and if so, nothing breaks, I'm doing PM on this, this, and this. And so you also have a routine. I wonder if, uh, uh, staff and superintendents and assistants. Could do a better job, including equipment managers as part of the team, even though maybe many of them do. I'm wondering if you see that as something we could do better. I would think so, but I don't want to put it all on them. And I encourage people listening to the podcast, my podcast all the time is get involved, start talking to people, whether it's your crew or whoever. So I think the technicians or equipment managers, you know, select the phone call. It works both ways, right? I can call you, you can call me. So however you want to do it to, to get the job done, go for it. So deep. So in meeting a lot of equipment managers, obviously, you know, chatting with them on your podcast, they're not having any problem communicating. But I think a lot of them, especially when they're young, really suffer that, that little bit of lack of confidence, right? Um, you know, they're in the shop, they're not making decisions, uh, necessarily on the course. But I think like you said, many superintendents have given them a choice. Uh, they're going to say, I can't do what the equipment manager does. I can do what the assistant does. I can't do what that person does. Um, Sometimes it's hard for personality types to break out. I'm hoping your podcast is helping those folks. I'm sure you do too. Oh yeah, for sure. And I don't, I mean, I had a guy the other day sent me a message and he was, uh, doing some local education, uh, um, on equipment managers get together in his area. And he said it was being on my podcast that broke him out of his shell. So, I mean, you know, it's just little steps like that getting out of your comfort zone. It's so great. And I preach get out of your comfort zone all the time because that's why I'm sitting here today. Because I got out of my comfort zone one time. You know, seven years ago and here I am. Hadn't been able to shut me up since. Well, okay. Well, since I got you out of your comfort zone and we're going to get you out of here on this. Uh, I've been on a little bit of a, uh, rant mood lately about the lack of, um, effective competition for the current metal equipment, uh, distributors, uh, manufacturers in turf. We have essentially for all intents and purposes, two colors left, and I'm really worried that that's stifling innovation, that they're not pushing each other. I wouldn't say I'm that impressed with technology that either of them are bringing to the table at the show. Um, you know, I see a chainsaw company from Sweden bringing more innovation into our industry than our own companies been selling us metal for years. I look at a fairway mower today, Trent. It looks almost the same as it did 20, 30 years ago, except maybe for a little more technology and some diesel, you know, emission stuff. Um, are you, do you share my concern that the lack of, uh, competition among equipment manufacturers in our industry is maybe holding us back a little bit? 100 percent agree with you on that. Yes. And this is something, I mean, I, I could get on my soapbox real quick. Well, you can, cause I'm ready to go. So I'll let you have the soapbox and then we'll get out of here. Tell me your opinion on this. All right. This is all opinion and uh, you know what they say about everybody. Nobody's listening anymore. They left us after the attitude of the they dipped out after behind center distance. But, um, Yeah, two manufacturers. When one has a price increase, the other has a price increase. Equipment has increased 50 percent in the last three years and everybody blames it on COVID. Well, the cost of a car has increased, but it has not doubled in the last three or four years. And the other thing that really gets under my skin is with both of these distributors, you have. So if you wanted to buy a Ford truck, you can go anywhere in the country and buy a Ford truck. If I want to buy a piece of turf equipment, I have to buy it from this dealer. Or if it's coming from this company, I got to buy it from this dealer. And same thing with parts. If you want parts, you have to order it from this dealer. They're the only ones in the world that can sell you this part. And what does that do to parts? They go through the roof. So this, this is even a deeper concern. I hadn't thought about the parts thing, but for sure, I was just worried. You know, when we started our work, Jacobson really made great mowers. I mean, 20 years ago, when we first started testing the battery operated Eclipse, the hand unit, um, you know, as they started to perfect it. Now, they didn't get the motor right when they released it, but they were working on it. I mean, Jake was a, you know, a competent company. They still had a lot of people based in Wisconsin. They hadn't moved the whole operation to Charlotte yet. And then over time, they just fell off the map. And I think in the last 15 years, we've just seen both the consolidation that you've talked about. And I just worry. Things just don't look like they're improving. Nevermind. They're costing more. You're exactly right. I mean, we have a sponsor to this program, frost spray technologies, and I love Ken Ross. And he told me he can get me a sprayer in 65 to 70 days. I talked to somebody with a color, a metal, and they're telling me I'm lucky for two years to be

Trent Manning:

able to get something. So You know, I think the lack of competition is allowing these people to basically dictate their own terms since you and I have both decided to sabotage our career right here. No more sponsors for us, but no more. Well, not of those colors, but I'm wondering, um, When you talk to people about this, is this one of those things that's just not talked about except and two knuckleheads like us get on a podcast that nobody listens to? Or do you hear people? Do you see it really impacting people in ways that we should start speaking up about? I mean, it's gonna kill the mom and pop courses. I think the price of equipment, you know, they're not gonna be able to afford new equipment. And then that drives the price of used equipment up. And they're not going to be able to afford that either. So you're going to see a lot of mom and pops going out of business, I think just because they can't afford turf equipment. Or they're going to have to have really good equipment managers to keep things that are 35 years old running. Yeah, true. That, that might be too, but yeah, they'll, they'll go broke paying us to keep their old stuff running. Let me take a minute and thank you one more time, Trent. Really appreciate you taking the time and and talking to a knucklehead like of the many knuckleheads you have to deal with who don't work in the equipment area. Really appreciate you being patient and giving me some really solid answers. I, I would really, uh, you know, recommend listening to your podcast. I listened to the one you did with Chris Hyman, one of our own, uh, equipment managers here in New York, uh, who I know is, who I know is well regarded. So I just want to thank you for taking the time and really wish you the best, uh, with the podcast, uh, your endeavors to sort of raise the professionalism of this industry. And, and I'm sure you're going to get a lot more positive comments about your podcast moving forward. It really is, uh, well done.\ Trent, thank you very much for taking the time to join me. Really appreciate all the work that you do to support equipment managers. And I'm looking forward to, uh, hearing more from the real turf tech podcast coming forward. Appreciate you taking the time to join me. Thank you so much, Frank, for having me on. That was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for listening to the Reel turf techs podcast. I hope you learned something today. Don't forget to subscribe. If you have any topics you'd like to discuss, or you'd like to be a guest, find us on Twitter at Reel turf techs.